Thank you for the many responses… even if we don’t seem to have clear answers.
Thanks, MAASTRICT. I have always wondered why most Europeans have essentially become non-religious! Take Ireland, for example…up until the 1960’s, the RC church was very powerful, and dictated social policy. Now, hardley anyone attends church regularly…and the Church is steadily becoming less relevant in people’s lives. In Germany, most of the great cathedrals stand almost empty on Sundays…why is this? I also recall reading that most of the great monasteries are expected to closein the coming years-few young men wish to become monks these days.
Europe will probably see the end of Christainity (as a majority religion) within 30 years…this is probably one of the most significant transformations in modern times, yet very few sociologists are commenting upoin it! What does this mean for the world?
Lol. I meant pitchforks 
You don’t need to have commited any injustice. Just not to agree with the crowd.
What? People demonizing other groups (currently, muslims and arabs), people stating that everything done by their country deserves praises and support, people advocating the use of torture and rationalizing it, people thinking that basic rights and liberties can and should be denied to “terrorists”, people stating that using neutron bombs on such or such country is the way to go, people in favor of ethnic cleansing, etc… There has been and there still are a number of posters making such statements. And most probably a larger number thinking long these lines but who do not dare expressing it so bluntly.
And mind you, these are people who are sitting safely in their house, in a wealthy and secure country. If they were under threat, if they had personnal grievances, if they were backed by some authority figure, if public order wasn’t enforced anymore, a lot of others would join them.
Perfectly ordinary and well behaved people forget any decency and turn into bloodthirsty fanaticals in dire curcumstances. I don’t think I need to give any example. It’s counter-examples that are difficult to come with. Each time people have been offered the chance, would-be butchers, torturers and vigilantes never failed to flock at the enlisting station.
(I’m waiting for you. I know you keep your destructive beauty and your victorious grim till the last breath. From your jaws drips agony.(…).In this strange carnival we sold Homo Sapiens to buy back Neanderthal. I’m waiting for you. (…) The village idiot is queueing and flashes his member card for a spot in the great fire. (…) I know you prepared the hemlock. I’m waiting for you. )
Another erm… ‘cloggie’ checking in here. There appear to be no unanswered questions at the moment, but I would have to agree with the ‘morals are bad for profits’ line of reasoning, although that is not as black and white as it may seem. We don’t allow euthanasia because we see it as a new tourism market, for instance. It’s just that religion no longer gets in the way of compassion and logical reasoning as it once did. But as soon as the rest of the world hears about it, they think we’re butchering babies for fun:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=289484&highlight=euthanasia
And as for ‘dope’, the most famous example of them all: I’ve never used it and probably never will, unless a docter advises me to use it as a painkiller or something like that. It’s for slackers, senior citizens with glaucoma and tourists, as far as I’m concerned.
Having lived in Europe for several years, including the Netherlands, I think the Europeans are yet to address the issue of “Racism” as the US has done. Don’t get me wrong, I do not believe that the Racism issue has totally been resolved in the US, but with the Civil Right movement, laws against discrimination, and the Equal Opportunity … the US is way ahead of Europe in addressing the Race issue.
While in Netherlands, I dated several Dutch ladies. I was amazed by their racism, especially their dislike of the blacks. They could never imagine possibility dating a black guy.
I doubt if that has changed much. I wonder how prevalent is racism in Netherlands? Has there been a study of Dutch racism?
I’d like to know if this is purely my perception based on personal experience, or is it an issue that the Dutch would yet have to address?
Originally posted by Wake up call
Blacks?
There’s bigotry about muslims here, I’m sorry to say, but blacks? Nope.
I was engaged to a black [Surinam] guy, until I lost him through a motor-accident. I have never heard of racism towards blacks.
I’ve googled for it and I can’t find a thing. There are links about discrimination towards muslims. That started after Theo van Gogh was butchered by a muslim-extremist.
Can’t help you here. I’m sorry you’ve been treated bad.
I happen to have a grand nephew in the Netherlands who is black. Can’t say that I’ve identified any racism in my Dutch sister and or cousins, although I can assure you that they are all on the right side of the political spectrum.
Wake up call, can you tell me some more about this racism you encountered while dating Dutch ladies? Like gum, I’m surprised to hear of it.
::commercial break::
[cheery clog voice]
Has this thread made you curious? Come to DutchDope in January, 2005! Yes, Holland. Its windmills. Its dykes. Its dope and doperrsrrrrs!! See what all the tolerance, the muslims and the Rembrandts are all about!
[/cheery clog voice]
::commercial break::
Sorry 'bout that. 
Not everybody seems to like us Dutchies. This FOX ‘columnist’ is calling us Nazi’s.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140612,00.html
Apparently, we DO kill babies just for the hell of it!
Pfft. Cal Thomas has been neither relevant nor entertaining for about as long as I’ve been capable of reading him.
Wow. This Cal Thomas badly needed an new Morally Evil Empire, huh?
Well, now that the “legitimate government” of Iraq are good guys…
Jayjay, the Iraqi’s are so fundamentally different, Cal Thomas wouldn’t know where to start pasting “immoral” stickers. Besides, IMHO, Christian fundamentalists have never felt easy about morally condemning Islam. How can they morally condemn a culture where women show no skin, the men drink no alcohol, family values rule and religion encompasses all aspects of daily life? By using feminist arguments and stressing the importance of keeping religion and politics apart? :rolleyes: No, best for them to keep silent about it.
People like Cal can’t handle more then two or three vices at a time. Any more vices then that, and it becomes another “culture”, and somehow condemning a whole 'nother culture isn’t quite as easy. Context and all that. The Dutch culture, so similar tot the USA and yet different in a few aspects, however, is perfect for the purpose.
For those who are interested in how euthanasia on babies really works in the Netherlands, check out this thread.
Another clog-boy chiming in.
I don’t have much to add (in fact I learned some things about the Netherlands that I didn’t know).
As for the discrimination : I think there is some covert discrimination, especially against our young citizens of Maroccan heritage.
I however think it is not worse than the discrimination that still happens in parts of America : it is not blatant discrimination, but it is a lot harder for certain groups to be succesful and get a good education or job.
However I think that the tide in the Netherlands are changing fast and people are getting more and more extreme in their opinions.
I fear we might even get some right-wingers in our next cabinet. :eek:
Historically, a belligerent Netherlands would have been a tempting target of any military force that could figure out how to blow up a dike. Allaying this temptation must have been a huge motivation to the Dutch over the years.
Precisely. You won’t know it , unless you get close.
One can put up a very “broad-minded Dutch” outlook about oneself and say “What do you mean? — My best friends are Jews, My best friends are black. Ya–dida-da-da”.
But when it gets close to home – NIMBY – Not In My Back Yard.
I want to know the “true” percentage of “open-minded Dutch” versus the percentage of “covert NIMBYs” in Holland.
Wake up call, You’re cherry picking Vinryk’s quote.
He said:
I already told you there’s bigotry towards muslims [Moroccans and Turks], ever since Theo van Gogh’s murder.
Originally posted by Wake up call
So…, You can’t find anything about Dutch racism towards blacks on the internet, huh.
It’s the holiday season and I’m quite busy, but if you give me some time, I’ll go door-to-door and ask 16 million people their views on blacks, okay?
The Danish Broadcasting (state owned) has, in light of the recent murder of Theo van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s forced retreat from public life and the Parliament (can you imagine a couple of US senators being forced underground, unable to perform their senatorial duties, as a result of threats from religious fanatics?), made a small documentary (24 min - Holland: The End of the Multicultural Dream) on the Dutch and tolerance, which is currently making the rounds of the internet with English subtitles.
http://66.195.17.52/~vmarks/archive/Danish-TV-Holland-The-end-of-the-multicultural-dream.wmv
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Movies/HollandEndMulticultDream.wmv
http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/TV/Horisont/
Supposedly the conclusion is that the Dutch aren’t really as much tolerant as indifferent. But I haven’t seen it so I can’t really comment.
Here’s another article that also makes that same distinction:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=16098
I don’t know how both came to the same idea, it sounds like a meme. The Netherlands is the country most like Denmark, except the Dutch are probably more tolerant than Danes, and indifference does have a lot of positive going for it – but writing it all off as merely that can’t be a fair conclusion.
Rune, the assumption that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been forced by terrorist threats to reatreat from her duties in Parliament doesn’t hold up. Other politicians (mr. Wilders ) have received death treats in the weeks following the Van Gogh murder as well, but Wilders has accepted the offered security and hasn’t missed a day in Parliament. It is noteworthy that van Gogh himself had been advised security in the weeks before his muder, but he refused them.
Last week the Dutch papers wrote the same thing the Danish papers you quote : that it is a bloody shame and an insult to our democracy that we can’t guarantee Hirsi Ali’s safety.
This week however, Hirsi Ali herself has been interviewed. She says she could go back to parliament if she wanted to, but she doesn;t want to return, yet. She wants some time alone, to work on her new book and a follow-up of the movie “Submission” she had made with Van Gogh, the movie that caused all the commotion.
So, the Danish news is one week behind.
Let me reverse this quote: can you imagine that the majoriy of members of the Dutchparliament don’t have any security whatsoever, and never had? I can’t imagine most US-senators go without some form of bodyguard.
I agree with you that Denmark and the Netherlands are very similiar. Actually, the Dutch admire the Danish way with immigration. You guys have far less of an immigrant problem then we do: you forced all immigrants to do such basic things as learn the language and get socially integrated (job or school) , with the result that Danish immigrants are much better adjusted and integrated into society then the Ducht immigrants. Looking with some jealousy at Denmark, we now say the Dutch government has been the proverbial kind doctor who leaves stinking wounds.