If someone took up music just in the hopes of attracting women, would you say “good on you for trying to improve yourself”, or “you’re being insulting to women if you believe that a guitar solo is the magic key to their pussies”?
It takes work, but it also takes direction. What exact improvements should they make?
Personally, I don’t believe there’s a practical, specific, step-by-step plan that will offer real results, but it must be tempting to believe those who say there is.
Bolding mine.
Yeah between Janitor Joe Blow and Prince William there’d be a lot of agreement. My small point is that there is a lot more subjectivity and YMMV than a statement of “high status” seems to me to imply.
The bolded bit is exactly the point … to me and to my wife? You’ve pegged us not too badly. We’d be impressed wth evidence of her intellectual curiosity and intellectual ambition along with her accomplishments and maybe slightly more so if she had achieved that from a less privileged origin. Even more if she is actually doing something with her life that she honestly thinks is important to making the world a better place and is doing the best she can at it. Another father would be more impressed with the supermodel looks. Or her being of a wealthy and/or powerful family or having a powerful high paying job. I’d be lying if I claimed I’d ignore any of those things but they’d not be the same impressing me that the former would.
The young woman one of my sons brings home that I’d wonder why she’s wasting her time with my boy may be a lower status woman to another dad.
The relevance to this thread is not just that I think incels’ idea of who is high status is not only different than my idea of who is, but their idea of high status is almost exclusively what they imagine others all accept as objectively what high status is, as determined by media provided fantasies.
I hope that I can say to our sons what my Mom said to me when Ms. P and I were dating: whoever you love, we’ll love too. This was a Southern Baptist mom whose son was dating a Jewish woman.
I’d say “good on you for trying to improve yourself” and leave it at that. A lot of the things that guys do, they initially do to try to appeal to or meet women - whether it’s music, art, physical fitness, or any other pursuit - but eventually develop it into a great talent that’s useful in other ways, so…all good, I say.
Depends entirely on the person. That’s why knowledgeable family, close friends, and mentor figures are important in life…and why it’s a good idea to get advice from numerous people with different perspectives, rather than just one.
At parties, always stand by the keg. It worked for me.
This isn’t directed at you particularly, as several people have made this claim. I don’t really know why people don’t agree with the claim that sex is a basic human need, as it’s pretty much a settled issue among psychologists. “Needs” are not considered only as those things that keep people alive.
Obviously the incels demand that they get to have supermodels makes about as much sense as homeless people demanding palaces and caviarm but pretending that a lack of sex isn’t damaging to mental health makes no more sense than claiming that a lack of food isn’t damaging to physical health.
Sexual release may be a need. But we can all achieve sexual release I believe by taking things into our own hands.
A partner? Not a need in my opinion. No guarantee. No entitlement. Such is life, we don’t all get partners, or financial success, or children, or a house. These are great goals, and while it’s true that many people will achieve some of these, very few will get them all. And those that don’t, have to get right with it, as in mature. Or focus on their shortfalls and make themselves miserable. Their choice.
We ARE responsible for our own happiness.
Maybe so, but this doesn’t mean “high status” is some meaningless and ill-defined concept. If the vast majority of people see a doctor or lawyer as being automatically more impressive than a cashier or pizza delivery guy, then it doesn’t matter if an outlier thinks a PhD biochemist is “low status”. Beauty works the same way. It’s a subjective concept and yet most sane folks can agree that Rhinna trumps Amy Schumer in that department, right?
You very well might be right, but since we’ve established that incels see the world in a very different and distorted way than most people, I’m not sure your point is as relevant as you think it is. It’s like pointing to what anorexics think about their bodies to argue about what being thin means in a colloquial sense.
A lot of voluntary celibates would disagree with you, Steophan.
These guys aren’t fucked up because they aren’t getting laid. They are fucked up because they don’t have meaningful relationships with anyone, including family and the community around them. It’s easier on the fragilest of male psyches to perpetrate like one’s rage is coming from a place of horniness and sexual frustration than it is to admit to being lonely. Hell, I would wager that a lot of these guys don’t know what loneliness feels like, never having felt what non-loneliness feels like. And the kind of person who has problems forming relationships is also the kind of person who will have problems articulating his feelings and accurately labeling them. That is why I don’t think we should take what they say at face value.
Americans are lonely, and young people seem to be especially so. In my opinion, Incels are a manifestation of a societal problem, and it will take societal-level changes to keep this “movement” from growing.
I wonder if any social psychologist has tried to draw contrasts and parallels between Incels and the hikkomori. Seems to me they are simply different manifestations of the same underlying dysfunction. In one society they are outwardly angry and self-entitled. In another society, they are outwardly sad and ashamed. But both are socially and emotionally ill-equipped to handle competition. It is estimated that there are half a million hikkomori in Japan. Is that what we should expect one day? What can we do to stop that from happening?
It’s not, though. I don’t need sex. My existence is my cite.
Fixed link for you. I gotta be useful for something around here.
Sex is a basic human need in order to propagate the species, but since a LOT of people are asexual, and a lot more are sort of indifferent to it, it isn’t a basic human need. You don’t die without it. You don’t fail to thrive without it. People are voluntarily and involuntarily celibate (in the normal way of just not getting any, not in the incel nutcase way) for years - or their entire lives - without any harm coming to them - that sort of makes it not a basic human NEED on an individual level.
Note that Maslow’s hierarchy is for relationships and physical contact - and its beyond a basic need (food, shelter, rest, security, safety). The first is more than sex. The second can be gotten by getting a massage once in a while (of the non-happy ending type)
Your opinion doesn’t really mean more than the observations and studies of psychologists. I’m not making a moral point, I’m not claiming that anyone is owed or should be provided with sex, I’m saying that it’s considered a basic human need by those who actually investigate these things.
The only way you can argie against that is to argue that mental health as a whole is irrelevant, and only physical health is necessary. I disagree with that, and I imagine most people do.
I fully accept that the idea that sex is essential for a normal, functional human life has an enormous amount of uncomfortable consequences. But ignoring it leads to many problems as well - look at the failure of celibacy in the priesthood, the violence committed by young men brainwashed into celibacy by the promise of 72 virgins in heaven, and that’s ignoring the subjects of this thread.
It’s interesting (to me, anyway) that the majority of criticism of the idea that sex is a basic need comes from moral, not psychological perspective.
Existence is not the point, though. You could, under the right circumstances, exist without clothing or shelter (or, in exceptional circumstances, either of them) but no-one would argue they’re not basic needs.
Expecting people to merely exist, rather than live, leads to a huge amount of problems.
I fully agree, and I think it’s pretty likely that they are not getting laid because they are fucked up, and not the other way round. It’s not unknown, to put it mildly, for people with issues to ignore their other basic needs, or to expect others to fulfil them even though they could do so themselves.
This is not meant to be a defence of incels, as they are by and large pretty shitty people. But saying that sex just isn’t that important is going to ensure that people won’t be able to answer the question in the thread title - “why are incels so angry?”
As for people who are truly asexual - that is, they are the most mentally healthy they could ever be without sex - I’m sure they exist, but are far rarer than people who for whatever reason choose not to have sex because of issues of some sort. Whether that’s past trauma (sexual or otherwise), finding it overwhelmingly difficult to find a partner due to social anxiety or whatever, or simply believing that they are not worth enough as a person for anyone to consider finding them attractive. At least some of those are from personal experience, and as I’ve said before on this board I have a few mental health issues.
Based on the nice guy threads, there seem to be lots of men who have friends but who are screamingly sexually frustrated also. Physical intimacy and sexual intimacy go together.
There are also people who don’t need tons of friends. But the problem is with people who have needs for either of these areas but not the skills/personality to get them.
It takes all types. For some of us physical contact is intimately tied to emotional contact. My married daughter likes physical contact with her husband just fine, but hates, hates hates the thought of a massage. She got a gift card for one once, and gave it away as fast as possible.
Some people don’t think about sex much, and some think about it as often as my dog thinks about food. Like always. It’s not an excuse for being an asshole, but for them it is a basic need.
I daresay that living without clothing or shelter is a much greater hardship than living without sex.
People have died for want of clothing or want of shelter. Noone has ever died for want of sex.
I don’t think Incels are the prototypical “nice guys”.
When I say these guys lack meaningful relationships, I’m not talking about just friendships. A lot of them feel disconnected from their families. A lot of them feel alienated from their communities (being under or unemployed). They have a perceived lack of social status.
Also, nowadays young people can claim to have a lot of friends. Dig deeper and they are talking about people they “know” online, who they game with or “forum” with. Or people they know in real life, but who they engage only through social media. Not friends who will take them out for a beer and ice cream when the feels get to be too much. This isn’t just an an Incel thing either. Friendship doesn’t mean quite the same thing now than it did a generation ago.