No, I’m not suggesting anything. I’m saying that one of the main points of a society is to meet people’s basic needs, and that includes mental health needs.
I’m not going to suggest that people should be provided with sex, and certainly not suggesting that people should force it. What needs to happen, though, is a recognition in education and mental health treatment that it’s important, and to help people obtain it in their lives.
With the proviso that this help should consist of helping people become attractive enough that they’re desirable, and confident enough that they can let their own desires be known, and cultured enough that they can do so in culturally appropriate ways, I’m all about giving that help. Also, the help should include the warning that none of this may work, and them’s the breaks.
Well that’s ridiculous, I believe. Sexual release MAY be a need, but a sexual partner isn’t. And it’s certainly not society’s job to help you in your quest for love.
You can’t akways get what you want. Mature adults recognize this.
Unlike petulant children stamping they’re feet and and shouting, “But I really need it!”, and “But everyone else has one, where’s mine?” This bunch deserve nothing but mocking and derision and certainly not to be taken seriously.
They deserve mental health help to help them grow up, nothing more.
On what are you basing that claim? Those that actually study it disagree.
Well that screams “cite please.” Many more exist without sexual relationships than exist without sexual release by any means. That alone argues strongly that sexual release is closer to a “need” than is “sexual relationship.” Even if the desire for the latter drives our behaviors more.
Anyway. I’m thinking that many here are meaning different things by “needs.” Some are using the word as that which is required to live or at least to live a healthy life, and placing other desires as “wants” or “drives.” Some want to place all wants and drives as needs.
In any case I think it can be agreed that “having sex” is not is the same universally experienced as essential need camp as, food and water, sleep, and adequate warmth. Humans I think also are so defined as social creatures that I would put relationships (of some sort) there as well. We cannot be healthy, babies cannot adequately grow and develop, and we die significantly earlier without adequate relationships.
Specifically sexual relationships are not in the same grouping. Our behaviors may often be driven and motivated by a desire for (often specific) ones but we do not die, or commonly become unhealthy, for the lack, and the strength of how that want drives us varies greatly between individuals and within the same individual at different times and contexts.
My guess is that individuals who are having their needs for relationships (of a non-sexual nature) met, along with the other more fundamental needs, are unlikely to become part of incel culture.
I believe that a focus on helping those who are part of, or who at risk of becoming part of, incel culture, succeed in getting sex, by helping them “become attractive enough that they’re desirable” is missing the actual key deficit in their lives. Further that it the lack of adequate and satisfying relationships in the more general sense that drives the sense of desperation that they focus upon sex.
I agree, DSeid. Making this discussion solely about sex makes it that much easier to turn Incels into a massive joke rather than a public health problem. We are gradually coming around to seeing the opioid epidemic as not a failure of individuals, but the consequence of failed economic and social systems. The basement-dwelling, social anxious and inept, low achieving young male needs to be seen in the same clinical light. The current milieu is totally different than the one most of us in grew up in. We need to recognize this in order to fix the problem.
I thought I’d comment here, because I think there IS a fairly universal and specific step by step plan that can maximize a given man’s chances for romantic success, provided they’re willing to put in the work.
The key here is putting in the work, because depending on where you’re starting from, it can be a lot of work, and from the sound of things, this is where incels give up and go complain instead of putting in that much work.
But what price real romantic happiness?
The steps are:
Good hygiene, grooming, and not dressing like a slob.
Building physical fitness and a good body - most men not suffering direct physical handicaps (and even many who have handicaps) are able to build their physical fitness and a good body in the gym or at home with the right equipment and diet. It takes lots of effort both initial and ongoing, could require major lifestyle changes, and requires many months or years of blood, sweat, and tears, but it is physically possible for the vast majority of people.
Having a good conversational repertoire and likeable interactions. For some folk, this is even harder than the physical fitness one, but good conversation and likeable interactions is a skill, and are possible for the vast majority of people, although it takes time and commitment and a systematic approach if you don’t have it naturally. Hire a conversational coach, read different books on the subject, and practice, practice, practice. If all else fails, try A/B tests for different conversational gambits and make note of which lead to more likeable interactions and better results and refine your skills over time. Because they ARE skills - you’re not just stuck with your current interaction model and conversational go-to’s, you have the power to change them and try different things and get better at it.
Have a high power career or be on the path to same. This one is harder and less accessible to everyone, admittedly. But most folk (especially most folk on the Dope here) online are intelligent and educated / educable and are able to find some degree of career success using those assets. High income isn’t necessarily a requirement, as you could work for a nonprofit or be a public defender or otherwise be contributing to some cause that people generally admire. And if you can’t get this one and know you can’t, focus on the other 3 and you’ll still have maximized your own individual chances.
If you can get even 3/4 of these down, you’ll have greatly increased your romantic potential, and at 4/4 you’ll have come very close to maximizing your individual romantic potential. Of course, it doesn’t guarantee that you’ll succeed any more than training your whole life and passing the Olympic qualifier thresholds will guarantee you’ll win an Olympic medal - but it has maximized your individual chances for success, giving you the best shot and the most chances you’ll have.
So those are specific and universal steps for improvement that I would bet apply to 90%+ of men who struggle with dating / romance. If anyone needs more detailed and specific advice for any step, they can find that in various fora or subreddits pretty easily.
The point where it falls down for incels and a lot of other people is it’s hard and requires a lot of work, and it’s much easier to go complain somewhere on the internet. Well, given these specific and universal steps, you can at least clearly and rationally weigh the costs and benefits of each path, and decide if maximizing your chances of finding love and companionship is worth the cost.
I think the problem with all that is that you are assuming these guys are normal apart from having shitty work ethic. If we are talking about a subpopulation that is dispropotionately burdened by emotional, social, or learning disabilities, then beating on the “work harder” drum is not helpful. We don’t expect other disabled people to firgure shit out all by themselves. But we do when it comes to the so-called derps.
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Another, broader issue is that most opinions that are bigoted or prejudiced have at least a nugget of truth to them. Dismissing the entire opinion out of hand tends to radicalize the speaker because they feel their truth is being dismissed.
Good hygiene doable.
Good body? If someone is an obese adult the success rate even with the best trainers and supervised plans at becoming non-obese long term is near zero. Just for example. And looks is usually the least of the equation. Fit sure.
Having good conversational skills, etc.? Yeah that is likely the core deficit, whether it is thus by biological predisposition or past experiences and lacks of. You couldn’t teach me the skill of dunking a basketball, and some of these people are that far off in this skill area. If social skill deficits are to be ameliorated they are best addressed early. Making up ground, learning empathy and honest interest in others, as an adult is more than just hiring a coach and practice. By adulthood it really is more akin to telling me to be tall for many of these folk than it is anything else. I can learn to stand u straight, take long steps, to hold myself with confidence … but I won’t be tall and won’t be able to dunk. And fixating on the social skills for romantic success again misses the mark.
High powered job? By definition half of us will be in below average ones … and not the most important item on the list.
So most at risk of being incels can realistically accomplish one of those four …
Nah, I’ll just lump you in with anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers and creationists. Maslow’s heirarchy of needs is about as fundamental as those things.
Twice as many of our individual ancestors were women as were men.
“Pairing up” for life might be the median human mating arrangement, but it’s not the mean. The mean is one successful breeding man for every two women. Many more men than women in human history have failed to mate. This is despite the fact (or perhaps somehow because of the fact) that the physical cost of reproduction is so much higher for a woman than it is for a man. It is not only very possible for women to date “up” on average, but it’s the historical fact that women have done so (where “up” here is demonstrated by successful reproduction for that favored subset of men with a mean of two women partners). This does not necessarily imply a large number of multi-partner relationships, intentional or otherwise. It could have been some form of serial monogamy, which at least some anthropologists believe was characteristic of the early species.
We don’t really know. The problem with spinning a story is that history ran only one time, which makes it hard to test. We have the genetic fact to confront that we all have roughly twice the number of female ancestors as male. We have to deal with that fact somehow, but there are multiple possible explanations which could fit the fact. I don’t know what the anthropological consensus on this is, or if there is a consensus.
I don’t have much to say about the specific topic of the thread except that I think monstro’s posts have generally been the best. I don’t agree with every sentence, but when it’s right on…
Great post, along with many others.
Thanks, Hellestal. I think others have made some good points too.
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They may have to work harder if they have social or learning disabilities, just like somebody with physical disabilities may have to work harder to get or stay fit. But I don’t buy that it’s literally impossible for the vast majority of them.
Sure, conversation doesn’t come naturally to people with social disabilities or non-neurotypical folk. So what? Lots of skills don’t come naturally, and require practice and repetition and deliberate thought and effort. Just because most people picked it up “naturally” doesn’t mean it’s unlearnable or impossible to improve with effort.
Certainly, it may be so hard that it requires a level of effort they’re not willing to put in, but for most of them it is possible to improve these things to the highest extent they can, which again maximizes their individual chances of success.
And yes, for some folks near the bottom with really dire learning or social disabilities, even that maximized chance may be a snowball’s chance - but I don’t think it’s that dire for the vast majority of folk who have trouble with dating and romance.
And it’s not on them to figure it all out - as stated, there’s lots of fora and subreddits that deal with those 4 things you can improve, and if nothing else you can post threads asking for individually tailored help and advice.
This is a very interesting argument, but I can’t seem to find a good cite for it - I assume it’s some sort of population-level genetic studies or something. Obviously in our own family trees, we have 1:1 ratios of women and men, but I’m guessing it’s speaking to some sort of collapse the higher up you go.
Can you provide a cite?
And I agree Monstro’s posts have been among the most thoughtful and nuanced here, I’ve enjoyed reading them, so thanks Monstro. 
I think everyone recognizes this, but that doesn’t make it painless. And many people cannot cope with the type of pain they experience.
People are responsible for their actions, so threatening and harming others is unacceptable. But people have a right to their own feelings.
I think this is a level of motivation and effort thing rather than a hardcoded law of physics thing.
If I took a population of 1,000 obese adults and offered to pay them each $500k a year in perpetuity for every year that they maintained a non-overweight BMI and were able to pass a basic fitness test, you really think 0% would succeed year on year? I think more like 90% would succeed, year on year for the duration of the payments.
Yes, it would require major lifestyle changes. Yes, it would require lots of work, hours every day probably. Yes, it would require constant vigilance and knowing the calories for everything you eat. Are all of those things impossible? No, they’re just hard.
Also, I get the impression most incels are relatively young men, which is exactly the time to improve your diet and get in the habit of working out regularly, because you respond quickly and see results much sooner than if you started in your forties or fifties.
Here is a New York Times link.
I know I’ve seen this referred to several other places, but that was the first cite that popped up on a google search.
Lump away if that makes you feel better about pulling a claim out of your ass. Meanwhile Maslow stated something as his thoughts and takes in 1943. It is to this day still a great framework and was in its time paradigm shifting in its impact. It is not however revealed truth any more than Freud’s id ego and superego are. And is no more accepted as such by those who study relationships and sexuality today than Freud’s concepts are.
In any case within Maslow’s thoughts “sex” was at the base of his pyramid included as “physiologic” … that’s the physiologic the drive for release (could be by any means). “Sexual intimacy” - relationships - is two levels less basic, with psychological needs.
And without question over the past 70 plus years the needs of humans as social creatures is recognized increasingly as basic, or more, than the need for individual security in isolation. That’s what motivates us to risk our individual safety for the perceived good of the group we belong to.
Textual Innuendo even when life itself is considered to on the line, no 90% of the obese cannot become non-obese long term. Exceptions occur to be sure, but they are not the rule. You can think whatever you want but there is nothing that supports what you think.
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but ISTM that many or most of the same factors that keep them from getting laid are the ones keeping them from relationships in general.
Women don’t like angry or socially inept losers. Neither does anyone else. And you aren’t going to meet either friends or romantic partners from the basement. I grant that getting them up to speed on how to meet chicks is addressing one of the symptoms rather than the root cause, but success tends to build upon itself. Building confidence and practicing talking to normal people without complaining about your own problems allows one not only to get dates, but to develop other relationships as well.
I would majorly amend Textual Innuendo’s list down to two items.
[ul][li]Good grooming, and [*]make the effort.[/ul]90% of success is showing up. It’s never going to work every time, and maybe you will get a success rate of one in fifty, especially at the beginning. But if you don’t play the percentages, you will have a success rate of 0. [/li]
You don’t need a high-powered job or money or a nice car. You don’t even need much of a rap, or be good at chatting up women, and fat guys get dates too. I was dirt poor and had no car (and not much by way of job prospects) when I met the Lovely and Talented Mrs.Shodan, and I managed to convince her to go out with me. And other women showed an equal lack of good taste. “Hit on everyone you find interesting”. Sooner or later the coin comes up heads three times in a row.
But you have to make the effort.
Regards,
Shodan