Perhaps you can explain where you see sympathy and contempt in this post, since you’ve been chasing it for 3 pages now. Because I’m reached my limit of chasing any rabbits of your approval and questioning here.
The contempt is:
My question is whether you hold the same contempt for others who absorb unrealistic images, like anorexics.
This is definitely changing, as the quality of TV series writing, acting, and directing increases exponentially each year. I’m not sure about movies, because I rarely see new releases, but the best writing and directing is on TV now anyway. The days of people only seeing an idealized vision of life on TV shows are coming to an end.
Well, if you were to ask anyone why they believe something, we should always expect them to say it’s because they believe it to be true, right? So I’m not sure we can do more than speculate the true reason for their beliefs.
But I get what you are saying, fundamentally. Its doubtful incels start out life thinking that only alpha men get the girls, for instance. This idea probably comes across their path after years of striking out and it sticks because it seems to conform to their experiences. They may not ever stop to consider the possibility that fallacious, circular reasoning could be in play (“ only alphas have girlfriends therefore this guy who has a gf must be an alpha”), and they may not appreciate that a lot of men with girlfriends and wives took a long time getting one. My husband is one of those men. No one who really know his life story would call him a Chad, but an incel probably would only based on just a superficial description of his life now.
So the question is how can we validate people’s experiences without essentially letting them indulge in self-defeating thinking?
Nah, you said contempt for one and sympathy for another.
All Humans absorb unrealistic information and images. It isn’t about sympathy or contempt. It’s mere fact laid bare. If you watch a Hollywood movie with pretty 30 year old “teen agers” and get all angsty about why you don’t look like the model who is playing the “plain” girl, this isn’t the fault of the movie or the actors or the studio. Yes, they can and should do a better job on this sort of thing, but they’re not evil here. Hell, I’m not saying it is entirely the kid’s fault for thinking that, but as I said, it has worked this way since we learned how to string words together and tell stories. At some point someone needs to be an adult in the room and say “You know this is just a story, right? And those people aren’t real? That ‘high school girl’ is 28 years old, her tits aren’t real, she’s wearing a wig, has professional makeup artists and was chosen for her looks.”
(Morbo: REALITY NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!)
What is your proposal to solve this? Attack people who don’t conform to your idea of who deserves sympathy and does not? Misunderstand basic facts? Stalk a thread demanding that people answer things to your satisfaction? Is this just general rage and enemy seeking or do you have some realistic proposal on how to correct this problem?
I said:
(bolding added)
I don’t know if your answers are satisfactory. There haven’t been any.
Yeah, I think the reason why this thread has gone on so long and has so many tangents is because people keep conflating incels with guys who want girlfriends but don’t have them. But as you say, incels aren’t just lonely dudes. (The rest of this post isn’t really directed at you, I’m expanding upon your point.) They’re one branch of what the Southern Poverty Law Center calls the male supremacist movement:
An incel isn’t even just a misogynist without a wife or girlfriend, though. Their specific ideology holds that women only want “Chads” and an incel can never become a Chad, therefore an incel can never have a real romantic relationship with a woman. And it’s totally not his fault! It’s because he wasn’t lucky enough to be born a Chad, and also because women are subhuman monsters who deserve to die. (I wish that were an exaggeration of how incels think about women, but it isn’t.)
Once a man has accepted this ideology, his belief that he’ll never find romantic love becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. He might still claim to want a girlfriend, but if he ever actually got one he’d be disqualified from being an incel and would be rejected by all his incel buddies. Worse, he’d be forced to admit that he had been grotesquely and fundamentally wrong about how the world works. As Larry Borgia says above, people don’t want to reject their own identities and belief systems. It’s not impossible to do this, but it’s difficult, and the rest of the incel community is going to actively discourage it.
I don’t see it as a joke or a public health problem. I’m totally on board with addressing the problems affecting youths today, however you want to do it, but there is nothing more special or deserving about the ragey ones. Inceldom is a platform and training ground for misogyny and other social ills, and this has been glossed over repeatedly, here, by some in favor of the idea that they are hated for not having sex. Not everyone is buying that.
The public health problem is not incels per se …they are a symptom, or perhaps a manifestation, of the public health problem.
I believe that, for variety of reasons, more people today are at risk of social isolation and are entering adulthood less well prepared with real world face to face social skills.
Programming that identifies early (preteen ideally) those at risk and, as wonky put it, focuses on developing “social skills, adaptive strategies, building resiliency and well-being, trying to enhance community engagement, etc. …” is the ounce of prevention. Will the young men in these programs have more sex as adults as a result? Become involved and caring husbands and fathers? Maybe maybe not. But they will be less isolated, more involved with a community or communities broader than others venting about their frustrations and blaming females for their unhappiness, and overall less miserable people.
It is not primarily about sex.
A big part I think has been societal inequality coupled with patriarchy as well. At least from early agriculture on societies developed inequality of resource distribution. Those who had more, meaning particular males as the those in most cases, used the more to collect a bigger share of the pie. The most important part of the pie was generally access to females to mate with, and both survival and reproductive success of the children so produced. The flip side of course is making sure that other males did not have as much pie.
That played out as polygamy and concubines for the male leaders of the group and service, work, and battle, for the lower status males, a very few becoming higher status themselves. And at extremes the ultimate “Chads”, the [Genghis Khans](coupled with patriarchy) (plural intentional). And incels then? They lived it with or they died. Complaining about it usually resulting in the latter.
Loneliness is a huge public health problem. Lack of connections and support causes psychological issues, physical issues, and systemic issues such as an inability to live in the community when people get older or frailer. Which means they end up in the medical system sooner rather than later.
Opioids, suicides, depression, anxiety, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, falls, I’ve seen loneliness and lack of social integration linked to each of these.
If Incels were killing themselves instead of other people, there would be more sympathy for them.
But I don’t think the amount of sympathy a problem elicits should dictate how we frame a problem and try to address it. And personally, I do not want to have to worry about some angry youth mowing me down in his car just because he thinks I am a Stacey, not anymore than I want to worry about catching noravirus when I go to a restaurant.
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It’s possible they are. I don’t know specific statistics on it, but I do know that white males make up the bulk of suicides in the US. I think white male suicide skews middle-aged, and obviously I am free of cites. But it’s possible that incels are killing themselves often. Maybe very often.
Apparently the main subreddit for incels was banned because of suicide discussion taking place. Saw it mentioned here.
I’ll disagree on this to some extent. A full blown incel may, but a pre-incel, one who has had severe problems finding a community to accept them, who has worked very hard in academics, is employed, but has few if any friends and less love interest is not looking for something handed that others worked for. They are looking to receive the same things that they worked for that they see others receive for their work.
It is similar to the unemployed and impoverished demographics. Where people say that they just want hand outs. That they should just go get a job. That we work for what we get, why should they get something without putting in the same work.
This ignores the fact that the work that you were doing may have been easy to find and to do, and they may have been working harder than you, just not getting as far with it.
Oh yeah, I agree that there are assholes and trolls who will insult and demean anyone. However, insulting and demeaning people with poor social skills is socially acceptable, even encouraged. Insulting and demeaning people with a physical handicap is generally not.
I don’t know about that. Characters have gotten more real, plots more complex. But it is still not an accurate reflection of reality. Reality is boring, and rarely has a happy ending.
Ummm, they do. They don’t get nearly as much press when they quietly take their lives in their own homes or in their parent’s basement, but for everyone that goes out in a blaze, quite a number do it with much less fanfare.
If you include people that have not become radicalized to become incels, people that have difficulties with social skills, and accordingly, have no social support structures, the suicide rate is going to be even higher.
I can certainly see how, when someone is hurting that badly, and has no community to give them support, how they may just join the only community that will accept them, rather than take their own life.
I don’t know if sympathy is the right word. Empathy may be. To understand that these are people that have goals and ambitions, as well as flaws and inhibitions, just like all of us. To understand that someone who has no friends or romantic interests isn’t just automatically a loser, as they are labeled not just in the world, but in this thread. To understand why someone could become radicalized, and to adopt certain beliefs and attitudes, as those are the beliefs and attitudes of the only social network that is actually willing to give them support.
It absolutely does not excuse behaviors. Especially for “founders” of the movement. But, it is important to remember that the majority of people are just looking for anything or anyone to actually listen to their story, and not call them a loser.
Maybe if we had a culture that wasn’t so quick to call out losers, to put down those who don’t fit in, to alienate those who already are disconnected, then they wouldn’t have to find companionship in a toxic environment.
I disagree.
If a “pre-incel” is not willing to do the work of seeking other people out socially, performing self-reflection and working on their own flaws, and not holding to unrealistic standards no, they have NOT done the “work” that the rest of us have done.
I don’t buy in the least the argument that any incels are “just join[ing] the only community that will accept them”. Incels are people who have specifically chosen to join a community self-identified by its hatred of and anger towards women.
There are online communities for all kinds of positive interests, from videogaming to stamp collecting or what have you. I call bullshit on the claim that incels, any incels, are somehow completely deprived of any access to community support except the community that just happens to viciously hate and blame women for the bad stuff in their own lives.
What I’m getting out of this is that it only counts as “work” if it’s successful. Anyone who ever fails at anything only ever does so because they’re a lazy-ass worthless asshole who deserves whatever they get.
Lots of people don’t have to work at having social skills. They just pick them up without any intent to do so. I don’t work hard at it. I haven’t done any bootstrapping. Somehow, either because of my brain or my environment, socialization is easy, friendships are easy, relationship-building is easy. So I’m not going to sneer at someone for not doing work that I haven’t done.
Right. But you are presupposing that someone who is not building social networks is not working to try to do so. You only see their failure and assume there is no effort.