There’s a road from one to the other, though. Unhappily single guy notices that despite trying to connect with women numerous times, every attempted connection is a failure. He looks at all these event and notices the common element: there was a woman involved! The women are all deliberately rejecting and sabotaging him!
This may sound dumb (because it is dumb) but it’s an appealing explanation because it transfers blame away onto other people. I’m not socially incompetent; they’re just sabotaging me! And like any stupid belief you have, it’s comforting to have people tell you that your stupid belief isn’t stupid, so you’re drawn to groups of like-thinking people. Who then expose you to more advanced versions of the same thought - from “waitresses are such teases” to “all women are teases” to “all women are deliberately screwing with me” to “all women are soulsucking demons in (sexy) human flesh”. Nobody leaps from the first statement to the last one, just like nobody signs into Incel Central just because they get turned down once. But by meeting people who straddle the level you’re on and the one above, you can hopscotch up the levels until you’re as awful as the worst of them.
So yeah - sexually dissatisfied men are full-blown incels in the bud. Ideally we’d nip it there, because it’s easier to ratchet somebody back one notch than to make them them do a complete flip. As to how to actually do that - don’t ask me. But it’s still the not-completely-lost-causes where we have the best chance to stop this.
BZZZZZT!! Here’s where you’re having your problem, ISTM. There is nothing about “being a member of a community of losers and social outcasts” that inherently requires anybody to be misogynistic.
Being somewhat socially awkward, not very attractive or successful, not very good at romance or sex, etc., can be just part of the hand life deals you. But endorsing misogynistic ideology is a voluntary choice.
What does it even mean to say “women just don’t get me, I don’t know what is up with them”?
If it means “I don’t understand why I’m not more attractive to more women, and I’m frustrated that I don’t understand it”, then I don’t think that’s “blaming” or “resenting” women at all.
If it means “I don’t understand why I’m not more attractive to more women, but it’s definitely their fault in some way, and they are in the wrong for not liking me more than they do”, then yes, that is “blaming” and “resenting” women, and it is also hateful towards women. Not super hateful, but hateful and misogynistic nonetheless.
I’ve bitched about the mail coming late, but no, I don’t blame the mailman for it unless I know it’s actually the mailman’s fault. That would be rather gratuitously nasty and hostile on my part.
It’s not arbitrary at all. At the one side, you have a guy that would like to date women, but fails. At the other, you have people who hate women and blame them for all of societies ills.
That the first guy can become the second guy over time and radicalization does not mean that they are the same, and it is that very assumption that there is no difference between them that helps to drive that radicalization in the first place.
You want to point out a specific thing or action that someone does, and say, “Hey, that’s a bit misogynistic, don’t you think?” That’s very different from saying that that same person hates women.
That’s not a good way to look at it. I would say, what is the difference between someone who is frustrated by their lack of dating life, and a misogynist? Now, can that first person become a misogynist? Sure. Are they now? Well, many would assume they are and throw that label at them, so, sure, you can call them that, and you may even convince them that you are right.
We may be talking past each other, because I am talking specifically about unhappily single guys, and how they can become hateful under the right conditions and end up subscribing to that particular philosophy, and how we could, as a society, try to prevent that, and I keep getting back that society won’t accept them because they are assholes or misogynists.
Once someone is gone full incel, there may be no hope. My point here is to try to keep people from going there.
I am not ignoring it at all. However, that there are people in this thread that aren’t being jerks and name calling doesn’t change the fact that there are people who are jerks and are name calling.
It is not broadbrushing. I am talking about specific instances of people being insulting and dismissive. That not everyone is doesn’t help that many are.
Depends on the sexist views. “I hate women.” Sure. have some harsh words. “Women won’t date me because they don’t get me” well, are harsh words going to change their minds? Not really.
And, as I 've said, having harsh words for someone who has romantic difficulties, under the presumption that they have romantic difficulties because they are sexist is the opposite of anything near what could be considered helpful.
I don’t have all the solutions. But, a start would be to not alienate people over having poor social skills. I know, that’s hard, because they have poor social skills makes you want to alienate them. It’s a natural reaction. If someone is not pleasing you, you push them away.
And yes, minorities do become radicalized for exactly the reason that you said. You should be worried about any group that is pushed away by mainstream thought and alianted through insults.
So, not something that would be related to or help with people who do consider their success at social relationships, including romantic ones to be a part of their self identity.
And yet, if people are losers and social outcasts, they are told that they are extremely misogynistic. It’s not self identified. It is a label that is applied. You are correct that there is nothing that causes them to be misogynistic, but there are many who ill call them so anyway.
And once again, we are talking past each other. You are talking about people who are endorsing misogyny. I am talking about people who are looking for a place to belong. If the only place that will accept a person is also a place that accepts misogynists, then that doesn’t mean that any member of the group is a misogynist.
You excluded the middle there.
Maybe it means “I don’t understand why women aren’t dating me, I must not have found the right one yet.” or, “I tried these techniques that I learned from [movie, book, friend, PUA, internet forum, cosmo article, so on], and it isn’t working. I’ll have to try a different technique.” There are many reasons that people come up with to rationalize their flaws. If we are going to condemn everyone who rationalizes their flaws rather than embracing them, we have much more than just romance to look at. Blaming individual women for not being compatible, blaming techniques for not working, blaming your deodorant for not smelling sexy enough. There are many things that a frustrated adult virgin will blame long before blaming women in general.
Well, who else would be at fault than the mailman for your mail being late? But, you admit that you bitch about it, and I guess you admit that you would blame them if you felt it was their fault. But you don’t hate them, do you?
Speaking as a loser and social outcast, this is not true. Each individual person has to earn the misogynist label, either by being visibly misogynist or standing adjacent to people who are. Merely being a loser sadsack garners you criticism and mockery, but people don’t assume you’re a woman hater until you actually are one.
Here is the disconnect. Incel logic states that not only is murder (and rape! Let’s not forget that added bonus!) a perfectly rational response to the mail being late, but that every mailman deserves to die for their late mail. If you embrace the label of incel, you’re not a victim. You’re the predator. (General “you”, of course.)
I think we study Nazis and White Supremacists to figure out why they are the way they are and to figure out if there’s a way to stop any progression in its tracks. Which is the same thing at least some of us are saying about Incels (thank you, monstro, for the tip).
There’s no reason whatsoever toxic masculinity and loneliness have to be viewed as contradictory. How something manifests and what its ultimate causes are will always be incredibly complex. We have data for the rise of loneliness, and we have data for the problems it causes. Incomplete data, but data. And I think most terrorism experts point to people on the fringes of society, those outcast and alienated, as more vulnerable to radicalization. If I were a good debater, I would take the time to look up an article I read a few months ago about jihadis targeting lonely young men who lacked social supports.
So, why is loneliness laughable in this context? Do you think it sounds too sympathetic?
No one in this thread are sympathetic because of the anger, antisocial behavior, or misogynistic attitudes. What you are stating is an incredible mischaracterization. What people are expressing is empathy towards other people in order to puzzle out if the attitudes these people hold are in fact influenced by environment and if it’s possible to modify the environment in a way that poisonous attitudes like what you are describing are mitigated.
It’s similar to puzzling out what motivates suicide bombers or radicals that fly an airplane into a building. Empathy for their state doesn’t mean agreement with their actions or attitudes.
Hmm. Can you point to examples (and please not the Lamia post which is not, in my opinion, the slam dunk you think it is)? I promise not to try to nitpick the examples, but I’m having a tough time thinking of times when someone who society would say is a “loser” is automatically assumed to be a misogynist without some other facts about his opinion of or interaction with women.
Where is the proof they are actually lonely? They are surrounded by others who believe just as they do and are constantly giving them positive feedback. They also meet up in person in lovely little gatherings where they chant in videos about they women they will never “allow” to suck their dicks, like it’s a real loss.
This is what I am saying. There are all sorts of excuses being made and white-washing of what these men are about. They get off on scaring women (if you can count a 14 year old as a woman). They celebrate murderers. They embrace the fact they aren’t “normies”.
Chalking it up to people with awkward social skills does a great disservice to people who do want to improve and find happiness. For now, we should take on-line harassment/threats more seriously. Then make sure children are taught at a young age about body autonomy, consent, and embracing all emotions in a healthy manner. Once they go incel? Try to minimize the damage to their future victims.
We know a little bit about where these people come from. They don’t spring from the earth fully-formed.
The by far most common way to become an “Incel” is because you feel lonely - or at least, that you’re being deprived of companionship that you want. (It’s also in the name.) Now I admit that once somebody goes “full Incel” it’s theoretically possible that they’ve gone completely insane, had their mind be replaced by a demon, forgotten their prior identity, and now are simply entities of pure mindless hate. We can’t prove that doesn’t happen.
But it’s more likely that they’re the same person just twisted and festering. Sort of like the difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity - they’re not the same, but they’re related and one is a warped form of the other. So it is, I believe, with the Incels.
Hmm. I don’t think that we’re seeing excuses or whitewashing happening in this thread. And I don’t know that anyone is claiming that Incels are currently lonely (though I see no reason to think they aren’t). The question for me is what causes people to become radicalized and is there any way to stop it, slow it, rechannel it, or understand it.
I get that you may not think that’s a worthwhile pursuit, but that does not mean that others feeling it is worthwhile makes them somehow a party to Incel evil.
I’ve been pretty lonely at times in my life, but as I got older, I looked at what I CHOSE to do, and most often, that was to be home alone, playing on my computer, writing, creating, watching movies and being one with myself.
When I was able to look at that, I stopped being lonely. I was choosing to be home alone and do my own thing. Any regret for this choice begins to make less sense, as if I was really lonely, I could always find something to do. I could go to the library or just sit in a coffee shop if I wanted to hang out near people. I could ASK people if they wanted to do things (something I seldom initiate).
Hell, I play Pathfinder once a week. Not more, because the 4-5 hours of socialization and noise is enough for me and I need to be home to recharge. I played two games in a row a few weeks back and suffered for it, as that was 11 hours of people and noise and bits of stupid mixed in. By the end of the night I had a headache and didn’t go anywhere the next day just to recharge my Introvert batteries.
I will admit to a lot more pain and regret about such things when I was younger. I’m seriously introverted, but I come across as very extroverted when I know you and am comfortable around you. I WANTED to be that extroverted figure all of the time. I also wanted to not experience depression and anxiety, but hey, we all want to be different from what we are, we all want to lose the weaknesses that block us off from others.
But in the end, I had to admit to myself that I am this person that I’ve always been, I spend 99% of my time alone and I do it because I want to and it makes me happy. That I can do the extroverted thing for a couple of hours, but I don’t have the stamina to do that for more than that. And that’s ok, there isn’t anything wrong with me. That’s who I am, that’s who I chose to be.
The Incel issue is taking that and deciding that it is other people who are forcing you to be alone and developing a very unhealthy hatred of “others”.
We teach these in pre-school, and before, even. It’s good to teach them first chance you get, so that children start off on the right foot. Following that logic, we should probably have follow-up lessons on ‘dating skills’ in early puberty. But school don’t have time/funding/expertise, so I don’t know who would be organising them. Maybe churches? The YMCA or PCYC?
Maybe we shouldn’t. Maybe the reason we still have Nazis and white supremacists is due to us framing racism as a moral issue–a failure of individuals to “think right”. Maybe we haven’t tried hard enough to figure out how to stop people from being radicalized in these ways so we don’t have to spend so much time counteracting them.
And you know, we haven’t made strides in racial equality just by shaming people. We’ve actually changed society so that it is harder to be over-the-top racist. It’s pretty damn hard to see an entire race of people as animals when you go to school with them, play on the same sports teams, have them as teachers, and live next door to them. And of course, the media has done a good job at diversifying who counts as “people”, at least in the context of race.
So what are the things we could do to make it harder to be an Incel? Not an involuntary celibate, but someone so mad at society they want to blow it up? The hell I know! But I’m not cynical enough to think there isn’t anything we could do. Maybe fewer involuntary celibrates would become Incels if they had more hope they could find happiness without tearing someone else down. That sounds like something therapy could help with. That sounds like something the media could help with. That sounds like something parents and teachers could help with. But like I said, I don’t know what the solution is.
We actually do plenty of “handwringing” over other social ills. I’ve mentioned anti-gang interventions repeatedly. The moralists have had their way since the beginning of civilization and look, we’re still dealing with shitty people being shitty. Maybe it’s time for us to get away from the pulpit and actually view bad behavior as a pathology that can be predicted and disrupted just like any other pathology.
Their affliction is the disease of negativity, combined with mental illnesses (probably chemical imbalances) that make them obsessively fixate on that negativity. I understand how obsessive-compulsive thinking works because I have struggled with it myself and I am happy to say I have conquered it at the present time. I understand what it’s like to be in that position. This picture hangs as a 24"x36" print on the wall right above my desk in my office, right above my head right now as I write this. It shows Howard Hughes, at 30 years old, a year younger than I am now, with the Hughes H-1 racer that he designed and built and broke the world’s speed record with. That picture, and his whole story, is a lesson to me, and a warning. A lesson that if you’re capable of channeling obsessive and compulsive desires into something productive, you can achieve incredible things. And a warning that if it’s not channeled into something productive, but allowed to run “free”, you are in for disaster. This applies to the mind; it also applies to the ego. I look at that picture every single day and I’m reminded of this.
I will say it again, it must be channeled into something productive. I don’t give a fuck what it is.
That mental energy is like a live wire with the insulation stripped away. It’s like a “suicide plug”, a cord with two-pronged plugs on each end, plugged into an active outlet. That other end needs to be plugged into something positive. If it isn’t, you know goddamn well where I’m going with this analogy.
There are two things I’m getting from your posts here. First is that you’re defining misogyny differently than most others because someone hurled it at you personally. Most are using the dictionary definition, and this is causing confusion.
The second is that as a community, as a source of support for those who are lonely, yes we probably suck and we could be better. I’m sorry that this is the case for a lot of people.
Well, I’m not a doctor or a social worker, I don’t have any credentials…maybe there IS a lot about it I don’t understand. You’re not entirely wrong. But I try to understand. All I know is my own life and my own peers, and I’ve seen too many fall before their time to severe mental illness, drug and alcohol addiction, and suicide. From what I’ve observed and discerned from life, I try as best as I can to offer advice and help to people who need it. Including myself. That’s all.
What does it even mean to say “women just don’t get me, I don’t know what is up with them”?