"Why are incels so angry?"

[monstro]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

:dubious: This is very silly. Of course people have self-destructive behavior patterns. Of course people have patterns they can’t always see themselves. Of course people sometimes go to therapists to help them figure out what they’re doing wrong and how to change that.

I’m really not sure why people are so determined to push back against this idea–it’s as if I recommended going to a doctor about that persistent cough, and people are all, “Doctors can’t diagnose every condition! Maybe you just coughed because you had some phlegm that one time! Anyway some doctors are doctors of philosophy and don’t know anything about medicine!”

No, it’s like expecting someone you just met to tell you why a handful of women (out of eleventy-billion) don’t care to return your call.

k9bfriender was opining that it is frustrating not knowing why he didn’t connect with specific women–not the generic woman that a psychotherapist has spent time studying. The only advice he’s going to get from a psychotherapist is about what generic women are looking for. Which may or may not be all that helpful. (Like, I think most guys know that flop sweat nervousness looks unattractive. They don’t need someone to point that out to them. They need someone to help them not be so nervous.)

Honestly, I just didn’t like how you delivered your “tip” to k9bfriender. It wasn’t just the tone you used. It was the way you made it sound like you’re entitled to frank advice you want as long as you pay for it. If you’re going to a psychotherapist who’d actually tell you why you aren’t attractive (physically or otherwise), then you’re going to someone who is engaging in malpractice. Psychotherapists can deliver harsh truths, but they simply aren’t going to be that brutal. Especially if it’s clear you’re suffering from low self-esteem and have some challenges that you just can’t change very easily or at all.

If I asked my psychotherapist the question “Why don’t people like me?”, she would would probably say something like, “Because you don’t like yourself, hon.” If she couldn’t say something like this with a straight face, she wouldn’t have me as her client. But if I asked her how to be more comfortable and winsome around people so that they’d be more inclined to like me, I know she’d have a lot of advice. Because this touches on subject matter that is right up her professional alley.

I think the real value in therapy is that it can help a person develop the persistence they need to keep trying. It is so nice to have someone in your back pocket who will give you assurances that you’re trying your best, so don’t take the rejections too personally, BUT KEEP TRYING. So I do think people struggling in the relationship arena can get a lot out of it. But not in the way you were suggesting to k9bfriender.

[dropzone]

@Kimstu

But then, I don’t think I’ve ever known anybody actually to express confusion about what an abuse victim of his acquaintance saw in her abuser.

Then I guess we haven’t really met. I have filters when I’m online. Lousy ones, but they exist. Offline it’s a wonder I’m not punched more often.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@monstro

Honestly, I just didn’t like how you delivered your “tip” to k9bfriender.

That’s fine.

[you_with_the_face]

@monstro

True. A lot of kids are jumping on the Incel bandwagon just because they want to have an name for their angst. (A lot of kids also label themselves as Forever Alone too. It’s infuriating).

That’s why I think it’s important to target interventions towards young teenager (14 and 15 especially). They have such loose self-concepts. And I hate to beat the “social media and internet” drum so much, but I think both make it harder for people to get some perspective on their pain.

The internet is 80% of the problem, I suspect. Not only does it allow toxic echo chambers to be only a click away, but the internet brings out insecurities in a way we’ve never seen.

Incels on average are how old? I doubt anyone knows, but I’d be surprised if you see many older than 30. Maturity goes far in tamping down a lot of the angst that makes teenagers think their world is over.

[monstro]

@you_with_the_face

The internet is 80% of the problem, I suspect. Not only does it allow toxic echo chambers to be only a click away, but the internet brings out insecurities in a way we’ve never seen.

Incels on average are how old? I doubt anyone knows, but I’d be surprised if you see many older than 30. Maturity goes far in tamping down a lot of the angst that makes teenagers think their world is over.

I would guess the average age at the FA subreddit is somewhere between 23 and 26. Many of the regulars have recently graduated from college and realize that things aren’t coming together for them the way they seem to do for everyone else. Not just in terms of relationship but also jobs. You often hear stuff like, “It would be one thing if I had a good job making a lot of money, because then I could distract myself by traveling and shopping. But I’ve got nothing! I’m a loser!” What’s worse, social media is constantly reminding them that they are behind the pack in terms of achievement and status. So they feel like a mega-loser instead of just a basic loser. FA discussions aren’t always interesting, but you can get some insight into the sources of the neuroses that a lot of involuntary celibates are dealing with, including Incels. I think many FAers graduate into Incels when the sadness and frustration morph into something more negative and intense. Platitudes are like the number one thing that sets posters off, so I try to steer clear of them (“It will work out one day, I promise” is a huge no-no).

There are some teenagers that post on the FA subreddit, but I’ve noticed that the older FAs are quick to (gently) chide those posters for labeling themselves prematurely. So there is some self-policing that goes on. It’s not without ulterior motive, though. It is EXTREMELY annoying for people who are approaching 30 to hear an 18-year-old bemoan his or her lack virginity. I have to imagine that it would be annoying even for an Incel.

I don’t know if policing the internet is the solution. I know the Incel subreddit was shut down, but there are many forums in the vast sea that is the internet. I also don’t know what to do with social media. It certainly has some downsides, but I think most users think it’s more good than bad (though the tide seems to be turning about Facebook). So I really don’t know how to combat this other than through reaching out to vulnerable youth and getting them to build a identity that exists in the real world with real people, not the world that’s on their screen or gaming console. It’s not that hard for a young person to figure out that TV and movies are peddling fair tales. But it is harder to convince them that everyone on social media is lying or exaggerating. And repeating “Comparison is the theft of joy” over and over just doesn’t work for everyone. We really need to come up with new advice to keep up with the new stressors that young people are dealing with.

[Robot_Arm]

@Kimstu

Well, I guess we’ll have to wait for k9b to return to the question to clear it up. I personally have never known any case of anybody being labeled a misogynist just for wondering out loud what a specific abuse victim of his acquaintance saw in her abuser.

I don’t know if I can point to that exact sequence of events, but I post with the worry that it might happen.

I hope we haven’t driven k9befriender out of the thread. If you do see this, but don’t want to post, I hope you’re well.

But those things aren’t answers to the question “what did she see in her abuser?”.

I know. I wasn’t offering those as answers. What you say about abused women is true, it’s despicable that they’re abused, and the concerns about it are legitimate. My point was that I can share those concerns, and also wonder how it starts and what a woman sees in someone like that.

Uh, no, nobody’s suggesting that we can’t commiserate with sad and lonely people on their bad luck in not finding a partner. What we’re objecting to is the particular subset of sad and lonely people who take out their frustration and resentment at their bad luck by blaming the fellow human beings who don’t want to partner with them.

Yes, and I object to that, too. But I don’t see anyone laying that sort of blame in this thread, and yet there has still been some pushback and complaints about how the thread has been going.

In any case, if sad and lonely men want role models for how to put up with their single lives without getting sucked down the rabbit hole of “incel” hatefulness, maybe they should try looking towards women. Sexually and romantically unsuccessful women have been constantly mocked and despised literally for millennia. (Do a Google search on the phrase “bitter old maids” if you want to see something like the scope of society’s traditional disdain for sad and lonely women.)

Women have had to learn to endure society’s unjust contempt and scorn for being unpartnered, without systematically blaming all their bad luck on the men who don’t want them (much less mass-murdering groups of random people out of their anger that men don’t want them). Men can learn to do the same, even as we all work together to lessen society’s unjust contempt and scorn for the unpartnered.

You don’t get to choose other people’s role models for them. I always hear how important it is for people to have role models who remind them of themselves. If some young woman wanted to be a tech entrepreneur and I said Steve Jobs could be her role model, I don’t think that suggestion would be very well received.

Besides which, men’s and women’s roles in forming relationships are still expected to be quite different. Men are still expected to take some initiative in dating. Just in this thread I’ve read how we’re supposed to work to improve ourselves, to not just sit around and expect the right woman to come to us. The roles are different, the causes of frustration are different, the feedback is different, I wouldn’t expect the coping strategies to turn out to be the same.

And bitter single women don’t blame men? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard some variation on “there are no good men left anymore.”

An important difference is that an abuser can make somebody into an abuse victim without that person’s consent: all they have to do is overpower them and beat them up. But nobody can make anybody else into a promoter of misogynistic incel ideology without that person’s consent.

Yes, but there’s a continuum of Incels being discussed. The ones who actively promote misogyny are some. But there has been plenty of scorn here for those who read Incel forums and don’t challenge the misogynist posts. How do you feel about those who don’t actively promote the ideas, but aren’t strong enough to break away from the community? I see a similarity between their emotional arc and that of a cult member or an abused spouse. They may even make excuses for those they follow but can’t leave. “He didn’t really mean it.”

It’s not a perfect comparison. Someone who’s fallen into a toxic online community doesn’t have the problem of living with the person who’s hurting them. On the other hand, an online community has strength of numbers. One person may feel insignificant in a place with dozens or hundreds of members. But I still think there might be a parallel in that people get drawn into these things gradually and don’t realize the harm it does to them until they’re in too deep to resist.

[Tee]

@Robot_Arm

That’s a long-winded answer to a short question, I guess. I want to learn from my missteps, but first I have to know what they are. I realize it’s hard to do in practice. There’s potential for hurt feelings, but there’s also potential to learn something. If I was on the other side, and someone was trying to learn from what I thought, I hope I’d handle it with all the grace and tact I could muster, but I also hope I’d be helpful.

It was a good answer. So you can see situational romantic problems from your own perspective, and you’re careful to say your rejections would not be judgmental.

On the other hand, you’ve said that their rejections of you are due to your missteps or deficits, and on the last page you said that rejection is for who you are.

I see these things out of habit, and now it bugs me, so I’ll now bug you about it because something isn’t right here.

[Kimstu]

@Robot_Arm

You don’t get to choose other people’s role models for them.

I don’t think I’m “choosing” anything for anyone else. I’m just suggesting that if unpartnered men want examples of people putting up with widespread scorn and contempt for their single status while remaining decent and productive human beings and not turning into hate-filled violent criminals, they might try considering the many examples of unpartnered women who do just that.

[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
I always hear how important it is for people to have role models who remind them of themselves.
[/quote]

Sure, it would be nice if we also had a substantial population of unpartnered men who were modeling how to overcome social stigma about singlehood by rising above the scorn and making the best of their lives. However, since a chief complaint in this thread seems to be claiming that such male role models for sad and lonely men don’t exist to any significant extent, and the only communities that will accept sad and lonely men are misogynistic or misogyny-friendly ones, then maybe at present the sad and lonely men would find it helpful to look to women for some inspiration.

[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
Besides which, men’s and women’s roles in forming relationships are still expected to be quite different. Men are still expected to take some initiative in dating. Just in this thread I’ve read how we’re supposed to work to improve ourselves, to not just sit around and expect the right woman to come to us.
[/quote]

Single women are also constantly told to work to improve themselves, to “get out there and meet people”, to “not just sit around and expect a man to find you”.

It’s true that traditional social gender roles still put pressure on men to initiate dating, but as feminists have been telling us for a long time, traditional social gender roles basically suck. And it’s certainly not true, and it never has been true, that men are the only ones expected to “fix themselves” and put some work into improving their odds for romantic success.

[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
And bitter single women don’t blame men? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard some variation on “there are no good men left anymore.”
[/quote]

Sure, there are lots of bitter single women who do just blame their problems on men in general. Which is hateful. But there are also lots of non-bitter single women who are just getting on with living and enjoying their lives, and trying to make a positive difference in the world, without resenting men for their widely despised single status.

I certainly never hear any single women complain that there are no communities where a sad lonely woman can be accepted other than groups of social outcasts and losers who encourage hatred and bigotry towards men. A sad lonely woman can certainly sit around and seethe in fruitless anti-male resentment if she wants to, but I’ve never heard of one lamenting that that was literally her only realistic option for community and social acceptance.

So all I’m saying here is that maybe there are things that men could learn from women when it comes to surviving social contempt for their lack of sexual and romantic success, and being healthy and happy in spite of it.

[QUOTE=Robot Arm]
But there has been plenty of scorn here for those who read Incel forums and don’t challenge the misogynist posts. How do you feel about those who don’t actively promote the ideas, but aren’t strong enough to break away from the community? I see a similarity between their emotional arc and that of a cult member or an abused spouse. They may even make excuses for those they follow but can’t leave. “He didn’t really mean it.”
[/quote]

Sure, I’m sorry for unhappy people in that position (although less so, as you note, than for unhappy people who are actually subjected to physical abuse, which is a way worse situation).

However, in both cases my sympathy for the unhappy person decreases sharply if they start taking out their unhappiness and pain on innocent victims. For example, if an abused wife makes her innocent teenage sister the scapegoat for her husband’s violence, and rages at the sister for “making him mad” and “being the problem”, so that she can go on being willfully blind to her husband’s responsibility for his own actions, that is a choice she’s made that I strongly disapprove of and condemn as selfish and hateful. Her unhappiness isn’t a justification for victimizing other people.

Likewise, I may be sorry for a lonely guy who feels trapped in a toxic incel community. But as soon as he chooses to adopt that ideology himself and viciously blame women for his lack of sexual and romantic success, that is a choice he’s made that I strongly disapprove of and condemn as selfish and hateful. His unhappiness isn’t a justification for victimizing other people.

[Robot_Arm]

@Tee

It was a good answer.

Thanks. This thread seems more contentious than most; it’s nice to find some understanding as well.

So you can see situational romantic problems from your own perspective, and you’re careful to say your rejections would not be judgmental.

On the other hand, you’ve said that their rejections of you are due to your missteps or deficits, and on the last page you said that rejection is for who you are.

I see these things out of habit, and now it bugs me, so I’ll now bug you about it because something isn’t right here.

It may just be limitations in language. If I’m a huge sports fan, that’s part of “who I am.” If someone rejects me because of that, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong, it just means we’re not right together. If I describe something as a misstep, it means it was wrong with one woman, but it might be right with another.

I guess I’m trying to describe something that’s personal, but not judgmental; incorrect, but not bad.

[monstro]

@Robot_Arm

You don’t get to choose other people’s role models for them. I always hear how important it is for people to have role models who remind them of themselves. If some young woman wanted to be a tech entrepreneur and I said Steve Jobs could be her role model, I don’t think that suggestion would be very well received.

Besides which, men’s and women’s roles in forming relationships are still expected to be quite different. Men are still expected to take some initiative in dating. Just in this thread I’ve read how we’re supposed to work to improve ourselves, to not just sit around and expect the right woman to come to us. The roles are different, the causes of frustration are different, the feedback is different, I wouldn’t expect the coping strategies to turn out to be the same.

Excellent point. I wouldn’t expect a guy to aspire to be like, say, Rosalind Franklin anymore than I would expect a young, lonely girl to find inspiration in Nicola Tesla. I love me some Nicola Tesla. But I ain’t trying to fall in love with no pigeon!

And bitter single women don’t blame men? I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard some variation on “there are no good men left anymore.”

Yeah, I don’t know why some people seem to think both genders aren’t equally prone to bitterness and resentment. There are a lot of FA woman who blame guys for having superficial preferences and for not overlooking their physical and personality flaws, and as you said, even more non-FA who do the exact same thing. Their bittnessness just expressed via the violent hate speech of the Incel.

[Kimstu]

@monstro

Yeah, I don’t know why some people seem to think both genders aren’t equally prone to bitterness and resentment.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that, though. For instance, what I’m saying is just that women as a group seem to be succeeding better than men at finding healthy alternatives to bitterness and resentment.

That doesn’t mean that all single women avoid bitterness and resentment: far from it, as you note. But in terms of managing to create support options that don’t involve bitterness and resentment (and particularly managing to avoid that whole “incel-uprising” mass-murder business), women overall seem to be scoring higher than men.

Certainly that is what the laments in this thread about the plight of men seem to suggest is the case.

[monstro]

@Kimstu

I don’t think anyone here is saying that, though. For instance, what I’m saying is just that women as a group seem to be succeeding better than men at finding healthy alternatives to bitterness and resentment.

That doesn’t mean that all single women avoid bitterness and resentment: far from it, as you note. But in terms of managing to create support options that don’t involve bitterness and resentment (and particularly managing to avoid that whole “incel-uprising” mass-murder business), women overall seem to be scoring higher than men.

Certainly that is what the laments in this thread about the plight of men seem to suggest is the case.

I think multiple things are going on.

1. There aren’t that many involuntary celibate woman. There are some, of course, but I really do think they are outnumbered by their male counterparts. So there aren’t enough of them to do the “uprising” thing.

2. There are more happily single women out there than happily single men. So if you are an unhappily single woman, you actually do have some role models out there who can help you to see you’re not a loser if you never find someone. For instance, I was heartened to learn that Michelle Wolf is happily single. And though Leslie Jones has social media’ed her sadness and frustration over being ignored and rejected, she’s at least a cool, non-crazy, successful chick that young woman can look up to as someone who is not letting the negative feels bring her down.

3. Women don’t get virgin-shamed like guys do. Yes, we get some of it. But it isn’t quite as bad. I’ve had plenty of women (older) tell me that sex ain’t all that and I’m not missing anything I can’t experience all by myself. Could be they are wrong. But I can’t imagine a guy hearing something like this from other guys. Guys in general frequently make it very clear that sex is the best thing in the world.

Also, and I admit this is controversial, but I think most women by a certain age come to realize that being in a relationship can be more trouble than its worth. My dad has been with my mother for almost 50 years, and though I love him to death, I don’t know why my mother puts up with his shit. I don’t know why my oldest sister puts up her husband. I don’t know why my brother’s girlfriend puts up with him. (A man I think I could “put up with” is you with the face’s husband. He’s a dream boat in every way! :)). I think women looking in from the outside are able to appreciate the shit that comes with relationships because their friends and female family members are quite vocal about the heavy emotional labor they put in. I suspect guys are more likely to see only the rainbows and lollipops of relationships, because men aren’t expected to do as much of the emotional labor.

4. Women tend to form closer relationships with friends and family than guys do. This provides some buffer from the lonely feelings.

I think it would be great if involuntarily celibate guys could take some notes from the girls. But I’m not thinking that it is fair to expect the guys to be like the girls in all those ways, all by themselves. Society needs to help too. I am also open to the idea that there are some biological underpinnings to the differences. Women don’t experience sex the same way that guys do. Women tend to be less variable cognitively, emotionally, and socially than guys tend to be. In childhood, socially weaker girls tend to be “mothered” by other girls, while boys are left to fend for themselves. So it’s complicated. And of course, men are more prone to aggression than women. Them hormones are powerful.

[Kimstu]

@monstro

1. There aren’t that many involuntary celibate woman. There are some, of course, but I really do think they are outnumbered by their male counterparts. So there aren’t enough of them to do the “uprising” thing.

Hmmm, this I’d like to see a cite for. I agree that due to gendered behavioral norms, women are less likely to go public with their dissatisfaction that they aren’t gettin’ some, or aren’t gettin’ more, but I’m not sure that means the dissatisfaction doesn’t exist. Somebody’s buying all those vibrators, after all.

@monstro

2. There are more happily single women out there than happily single men. So if you are an unhappily single woman, you actually do have some role models out there who can help you to see you’re not a loser if you never find someone.

I agree that happily single women are more visible than their male counterparts nowadays. This is a big part of what I think men might find it helpful to imitate.

@monstro

3. Women don’t get virgin-shamed like guys do. Yes, we get some of it. But it isn’t quite as bad. I’ve had plenty of women (older) tell me that sex ain’t all that and I’m not missing anything I can’t experience all by myself. Could be they are wrong. But I can’t imagine a guy hearing something like this from other guys. Guys in general frequently make it very clear that sex is the best thing in the world.

Also, and I admit this is controversial, but I think most women by a certain age come to realize that being in a relationship can be more trouble than its worth. My dad has been with my mother for almost 50 years, and though I love him to death, I don’t know why my mother puts up with his shit. I don’t know why my oldest sister puts up her husband. I don’t know why my brother’s girlfriend puts up with him. (A man I think I could “put up with” is you with the face’s husband. He’s a dream boat in every way! :)). I think women looking in from the outside are able to appreciate the shit that comes with relationships because their friends and female family members are quite vocal about the heavy emotional labor they put in. I suspect guys are more likely to see only the rainbows and lollipops of relationships, because men aren’t expected to do as much of the emotional labor.

True. Here’s a good space to note that although it’s really not good to blame other people for one’s troubles with relationships, it’s perfectly valid to blame our society’s traditional and somewhat warped approach to gender roles and gender relations. It is not the fault of men as a group that relationships/marriage/cohabitation are frequently more work and less rewarding for women than for men, but it’s definitely based on real phenomena in the way our ancestors constructed our societies.

@monstro

34. Women tend to form closer relationships with friends and family than guys do. This provides some buffer from the lonely feelings.

I think it would be great if involuntarily celibate guys could take some notes from the girls. But I’m not thinking that it is fair to expect the guys to be like the girls in all those ways, all by themselves. Society needs to help too. I am also open to the idea that there are some biological underpinnings to the differences. Women don’t experience sex the same way that guys do. Women tend to be less variable cognitively, emotionally, and socially than guys tend to be. In childhood, socially weaker girls tend to be “mothered” by other girls, while boys are left to fend for themselves. So it’s complicated. And of course, men are more prone to aggression than women. Them hormones are powerful.

With the caveat that of course people in general remain responsible for their own actions, I think you have valid points on all of these issues.

I do, however, have one general gripe that’s not against you or any other poster here but rather against society as a whole. Social isolation/celibacy/loneliness/shaming, ISTM, is joining the rather lengthy list of modern phenomena that Suddenly Become a Major Social Crisis When Men Start Being Significantly Affected By Them.

A society abundantly supplied with lonely bereaved widows and despised old maids, in which bachelorhood was perceived as far more glamorous and voluntary than spinsterhood, used to be largely taken for granted as just part of how things were. Now that increased female independence and feminism in general have made male companionship less socially indispensable for women, the percentage of men among the lonely and scoffed-at is growing, and consequently being lonely and scoffed-at is now a Huge Fucking Deal.

[dropzone]

Wait, violent incel women? I see a movie in that! Quick! Get Ava DuVernay on the line!

[Tee]

@Robot_Arm

Thanks. This thread seems more contentious than most; it’s nice to find some understanding as well.

It may just be limitations in language. If I’m a huge sports fan, that’s part of “who I am.” If someone rejects me because of that, it doesn’t mean I’m wrong, it just means we’re not right together. If I describe something as a misstep, it means it was wrong with one woman, but it might be right with another.

I guess I’m trying to describe something that’s personal, but not judgmental; incorrect, but not bad.

It’s a little sad, a little amusing. I don’t go out with women and you do, so I’ll have to take you at your word that this is reasonable. We’re in the Boston market. It would make little sense for me to reject someone because he’s a sports fan, unless I don’t like sports fans, and forgot to mention that, and I am somehow surprised to find out that the guy I’m on a date with likes sports.

There is a lot I don’t understand about dating these days.

[Broomstick]

@Kimstu

Hmmm, this I’d like to see a cite for. I agree that due to gendered behavioral norms, women are less likely to go public with their dissatisfaction that they aren’t gettin’ some, or aren’t gettin’ more, but I’m not sure that means the dissatisfaction doesn’t exist. Somebody’s buying all those vibrators, after all.

Wow. Didn’t realize I had to be involuntarily celibate to purchase a vibrator. Or that using one to pleasure myself instead of having a one-night stand or an unsatisfactory relationship with a man indicated that I was somehow unhappy or dissatisfied.

See, that’s the thing - people both in and out of relationships masturbate. Masturbating can be quite satisfying. It doesn’t inherently mean someone is not getting any, or not getting enough. Someone can be quite content, even happy, to be unattached and using masturbation to satisfy sexual urges. On the other hand, someone could be in a long term relationship and NOT getting any/enough and using masturbation to as a sexual outlet in a relationship that otherwise doesn’t include sex (could be age problems like impotence, dementia, severe illness, severe injury, could be short or long term).

If it was just a matter of having an orgasm these incel types could “solve” their problem with masturbation… but it’s not the real problem. If it was just a matter of having sex they could either pay for a cheap whore or find a willing woman of less than supermodel looks and get laid… but it’s not the real problem. What they really want is a “relationship” where they are unquestionably in control and can demand anything and everything from their [del]sex slave[/del] partner. They want to treat a relationship like buying a car - you go and select what you want, the colors, the options, the extras, and you’re in total control. And they want it as cheaply as possible.

[dropzone]

@Broomstick

Wow. Didn’t realize I had to be involuntarily celibate to purchase a vibrator. Or that using one to pleasure myself instead of having a one-night stand or an unsatisfactory relationship with a man indicated that I was somehow unhappy or dissatisfied.

Vibrators can be used someplace other than on ones cheek or neck? Lillian Vernon lied to me?

On a more serious note, is anybody going to find hardish numbers on how big this “movement” actually is? And whether we really need to worry about it? Sure, a couple of outliers got violent, but, being crazy, they would probably have found something to get violent about.

[Robot_Arm]

@Tee

It’s a little sad, a little amusing. I don’t go out with women and you do, so I’ll have to take you at your word that this is reasonable. We’re in the Boston market. It would make little sense for me to reject someone because he’s a sports fan, unless I don’t like sports fans, and forgot to mention that, and I am somehow surprised to find out that the guy I’m on a date with likes sports.

I’m not really a big sports fan, either; at least not the traditional big four. I kinda enjoy going to a game at Fenway once in a while, but I don’t even know how the local teams are doing most of the time. It’s a big part of Boston life, though. I was just looking for something that would be a different taste or personality between two people. Neither right, neither wrong, just different.

A better example might have been religion. I’m agnostic. If I met a woman who was very religious, and expected to share that part of her life with a romantic partner, I’m probably not the guy for her. If she rejected me, I might be disappointed, but I wouldn’t blame her or be offended if she told me that was the reason.

[monstro]

@Kimstu

Hmmm, this I’d like to see a cite for. I agree that due to gendered behavioral norms, women are less likely to go public with their dissatisfaction that they aren’t gettin’ some, or aren’t gettin’ more, but I’m not sure that means the dissatisfaction doesn’t exist. Somebody’s buying all those vibrators, after all.

For what it is worth, I’m talking about adults who are self-identified virgins. I think there are more guys in this group than women. I’m not counting thirsty divorcees.

I don’t think it’s just a matter of one group being more vocal than the other. I also think girls are more likely to attract both unwanted and wanted sexual attention than guys are. I’m not an expert; I readily admit this is just a hunch based on observation and personal experience. Like, I was a big ole dork when I was young. A regular dingus . But without even trying (hope this doesn’t come across as bragging), I had guys hollering at me. I have no doubt I could have gotten my freak on with someone, if I had been so inclined. (Howeer, a lot of FA women don’t have the experience of being hollered at, which makes them feel worse than the FA women who have had this experience. I’m guessing the former feel more hopeless about their prospects than the latter.)

Sociallly marginal women typically don’t have as many whammies working against them (the whole women-cluster-around-the-average-more-than-guys-do thing.) Socially marginal women may have a physical issue (acne, obesity, physical disability, etc.) that make her less conventionally attractive. But their emotional, cognitive, and social issues won’t likely be as intense compared to their guy counterparts. Guys are much more likely to have neurological issues (autism, ADD, schizophrenia, etc.) that make socialization difficult. Which is why I wouldn’t expect Incel guys to be able to take their cues from all the single ladies. The differences between them are more than genitalia-deep.

I agree that happily single women are more visible than their male counterparts nowadays. This is a big part of what I think men might find it helpful to imitate.

Right, but I think it would be great if we can have some compassion here. I wouldn’t expect girls with body issues to be inspired by schlubby male actors. There are some role models than can transcend gender (Harriet Tubman), and some role models that speak to specific genders. If I were a socially awkward guy who has never been hollered at, I think it would be really frustrating for someone to tell me to look at Michelle Wolf for how to deal with the negative feels. Michelle Wolf ain’t a virgin. She’s been in relationships. She’s physically attractive (I think so at least). We don’t even know if she’s had any negative feels. Hell, I think even pointing to her as a role model for the typical FA woman would be a little too rich. FA woman frequently bemoan the absence of role models that look like them and have their experiences. I don’t know any high profile people that can serve in this capacity.

True. Here’s a good space to note that although it’s really not good to blame other people for one’s troubles with relationships, it’s perfectly valid to blame our society’s traditional and somewhat warped approach to gender roles and gender relations. It is not the fault of men as a group that relationships/marriage/cohabitation are frequently more work and less rewarding for women than for men, but it’s definitely based on real phenomena in the way our ancestors constructed our societies.

But here’s where guys could help. I think guys not only need to take on more emotional labor, but guys could also let their little bros know how much work goes into relationships and how even on a good day, relationships can kind of suck. In public, my father worships my mother. It’s always real touching. But in private one-on-one moments (i.e., I’m the only one in the room), he will spill all the beans about how crazy my mother is and how she drives him crazy. In my experience, women don’t do the public worshipping thing quite to the same degree. We are encouraged to have the attitude that while men make life fun and exciting, we can live just fine without them.

I do, however, have one general gripe that’s not against you or any other poster here but rather against society as a whole. Social isolation/celibacy/loneliness/shaming, ISTM, is joining the rather lengthy list of modern phenomena that Suddenly Become a Major Social Crisis When Men Start Being Significantly Affected By Them.

A society abundantly supplied with lonely bereaved widows and despised old maids, in which bachelorhood was perceived as far more glamorous and voluntary than spinsterhood, used to be largely taken for granted as just part of how things were. Now that increased female independence and feminism in general have made male companionship less socially indispensable for women, the percentage of men among the lonely and scoffed-at is growing, and consequently being lonely and scoffed-at is now a Huge Fucking Deal.

Well, I don’t know. If men are inherently or culturally more vulnerable to loneliness than women are, then it actually makes sense to make this a Huge Fucking Deal. If women are more likely to be sad when they are lonely, but men are more likely to be violent, rageful, and self-destructive when they are lonely, then male loneliness really does rise to a different level of crisis than female loneliness. I’m not saying that I know for a fact that men and women experience loneliness differently, but I’m open to this idea and I’m also open to interventions that treat men and women differently. I don’t think it’s necessarily productive to point to how stoic the spinsters and ole maids of yore were. For one thing, we don’t know how stoic those women actually were (mental institutions were much more of a thing in the days of yore than they are now). For another, the internet really does make it harder to be and appear stoic–and this goes for both women and men.

[Tee]

@Robot_Arm

I’m not really a big sports fan, either; at least not the traditional big four. I kinda enjoy going to a game at Fenway once in a while, but I don’t even know how the local teams are doing most of the time. It’s a big part of Boston life, though. I was just looking for something that would be a different taste or personality between two people. Neither right, neither wrong, just different.

A better example might have been religion. I’m agnostic. If I met a woman who was very religious, and expected to share that part of her life with a romantic partner, I’m probably not the guy for her. If she rejected me, I might be disappointed, but I wouldn’t blame her or be offended if she told me that was the reason.

I totally agree. That’s a reasonable dealbreaker for people. It doesn’t really lessen my concern in your case though, because you’ve said you have trouble on the relationship front and I don’t know how you approach women. This: If she rejected me, I might be disappointed, but… your friends would want to know how you weren’t aware of this important religious requirement in the first place, and did you unknowingly set yourself up for that disappointment.

It’s supposed to be fun, you know? Not painful.