Maybe, maybe not, WV_Woman. But by the same token, clearly enough non-Jews survived to ensure the next non-Jewish generation as well…
Zev Steinhardt
You know, it is remarkable how few Jews there are in the world. About 15 million or so all told.
(What would the world be like if we had a billion Jews and only 15 million Muslims?)
Paul—the way they have usually discouraged conversion didn’t help their numbers to grow, when lots of other religions around them welcomed conversion. Not so remarkable if you live in a universe in which causality operates. (But that would be a topic for Great Debates. Is there causality???)
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- I’d guess that (at least in the US) Jews -especially orthodox Jews- tend to keep a presentable appearance and hold down a job. That can be fantastically annoying to you, if you’re wearing rags and are penniless because you don’t like to work.
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- Strange indeed: oil would cost $100 a barrel, and John Wayne would have spent his entire career riding around on a camel. - DougC
The killing of WW2 aside, since the atrosities were so much worse then anything else camparable in history, I’m not convinved the Jews actually are hated any more then other religions. Of course it depends where you are and who you ask, but there has been a lot of hatred in places between for example; Hindu and Islam, christianity and just about everyone else at some stage. Perhaps the fame of hatred for jews has added to perception that jews are more hated then other religions?
Uh, wanna come over for beer and latkes?
I don’t buy Why the Jews’s conclusion, but they do have good arguments against all the other usual explainations. Oh, hell. It’s our breath, isn’t it? Dandruff? That feminine not-so-fresh feeling?
Oh, but that’s one of my favorite shows on NPR!
Hey, there we go! Finally, a Jew with some PR skills. I bet people would love you all a whole lot more if you would offer more beer.
Wow! Lots of stuff to consider since I last posted yesterday! I’ll try to be brief and address what I can.
- I think usury definitely plays a part in the development of hostilities. Ever read “The Merchant of Venice” by Shakespeare (late 1500s - early 1600s)? A.K.A. the play with the famous lines
“Hath a Jew not eyes? Hath a Jew not hands?..”
That play is a great indicator of the friction caused by usury - but also of the pre-existing prejudice in England. Even before meeting Shylock the MoneyLender, the characters in the play are talking about how he’s so…well, “undesirable” seems a gracious way to put it.
That’s the only real evidence I can think of for the usury thing.
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Thanks for the compliment p@cific@812.
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The Roman theory is definitely viable. If not for them and the causing of the diaspora, millions of Jews wouldn’t have had to immigrate to Europe. Is it just me, or was Europe of prior times incredibly biased towards people without homelands? Both the Jews and the Gypsies (I know there’s a more P.C. term for them, but I can’t think of it. Roma? Something like that…) were reviled no matter where in Europe they went. Ug. I just woke up, and that’s all I can synthesize for you about Rome.
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As for the Jews being more assimilated into German culture than any other in Europe, I just don’t know. But I would like to point out the state of desperation that Germany was in during the 1920s. While we in the U.S. were reveling in our drunken state of capitalism, Germany had just been saddled with the bill for W.W.I. Per the Treaty of Versailles that ended that war, Germany had to claim all responsibility for starting it, and thus was forced to pay the massive war bills incurred by its enemies, in additon to its own. Inflation in Germany was at one point so bad that a cartload full of their paper money was equal (roughly) to one of our nickels. The money was so worthless that people used it as fuel for their kitchen fires. The people, who before the war were proud, affluent German Imperial citizens, had now become all paupers. They wanted a quick road back to prosperity, and Hitler (when he first came to power) actually did have some useful economic policies (that didn’t involve Jews). Even though most of the people knew about his stance on Jews, they wanted the money more than the social equality. Just goes to show you that money talks.
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Jomo Mojo - you’re right. The Muslims have historically been far kinder to strangers than others. But no matter how courteously the Jews in Palestine came to be treated by them, it still doesn’t change the fact that they no longer really had a homeland. Even in what had once been their own, they really had no place.
However, I would like to point out how kind the Muslims were at that time. There are lots of accounts during the Crusades of the following situation:
Muslim Prison
Muslim Guard: Hello Christian Knight! How are you? Here’s your own cell and a big plate of food. Even though you have tried to kill my people repeatedly, Allah tells me that I must treat you fairly. Have a comfortable stay at your Ramada Prison Cell!
Christian Prison
Christian Guard: When I’m not yanking your arm out of its socket and starving you to death, you’ll stay in that cell, Muslim pig-dog! Enjoy your stay at the Hanoi Hilton!
- DougC - I have to agree with you there. But I do think that at that time, for the ignorant the very appearance of a Jew can be a bit frightening. Example: I live in Southeastern Virginia. Years ago, myself, my mother, and my little brother went to Colonial Williamsburg (on a school-day. Mom was a firm believer in the prevention of school burnout by frequent day-trips. ) Anyway, eventually, we had to use the restroom. Me and mom went into the one bathroom, and Travis to the other. While I was washing my hands, Travis (who was 11) came running in.
Me: What are you doing!
Trav: There are scary people out there!
Me: Who?!
Trav: Really polite biker people!
Me: HUH?!
Trav: They’re dressed all in black. They have their own biker language!
Mom: Biker people! I’ll teach them to frighten my little boy!
peeks out of restroom window
Mom: They’re Hasidic Jews. They’re very nice. Go apologize for running away like a little hellion!
Just my take on everything.
I gosh, I’m embarrassed! :o
Well, that’s what I get for have court tv playing in the background while I’m trying to think! :smack:
I feel like such a :wally
Wherever they have gone, since Judea ceased to be, up until Israel existed, is they have been foreigners EVERYWHERE.
People don’t like foreigners.
That other annoying thing is they’ve kept this identity thing going, instead of allowing their culture/race/whatever-you-think-it-is to be diluted and lost. So they stay foreigners.
And then when Israel became a state again, I hear it kind of annoyed one particular set of people.
…and here is why. Any objective study of the Jewish people reveals that they as a group, have been far more successful than anybody else. Take the Nobel prizes-the Jews are represented all out of proportion to their numbers. In prewar germany, the Jews were university professors, doctors, lawyers, and businessmen. Their superior performance made them the target of hatred, and I would argue that this envy still plays a major role today in anti semitism. Strangely, those groups that most hate the Jews never seem to take the lesson from their success-hard work, study, and respect for learning, combined with a moral code. sTRANGE, ISN’T IT-THE jEWS WERE REVILED BY CERTAIN RACIST GROUPS (LIKE THE bLACK PANTHER), BUT THE MEMBERS OF THIS GROUP COULD NEVER SEEM TO GRASP THAT SUCCESS DOESN’T COME TO PEOPLE JUST BY COMPLAINING!
Some interesting food for thought, Ralph.
Yes, they have been successful, and perhaps that is a reason for some of the prejudice against them. I think that Jewish culture has always highly prized education, and they have made a virtue out of using that education to their advantage. 
Is that a fault? Goodness no! But if they (or anyone!) has more education and more money than those around them, the ignorant would use it as a weapon.
I like the point about success not coming by complaining. And I also think that it is a shame that even today, when education of the common man is reaching new heights in America, that people continue to harbor racist beliefs against the Jews.
BTW, whatever happened to the Black Panthers? Did they die out in the 70s? (I wish I could ask the same of the KKK. :mad: )
(What would the world be like if we had a billion Jews and only 15 million Muslims?
It’d be great!
And yeah, what ralph said.
If the Jewish people as a whole were poor, stupid, and mostly worked behind the counter at Mickey D’s, there’d be nothing to be jealous about.
Sorry if it offends you, but they’re just special.
In his book “American Militias,” Richard Abanes claims that the primary original reason for hatred of Jews actually had to do with Roman persecution of Christians. According to Abanes, the Roman Empire would only permit religions which “recognized and honored Caesar above all else.” Apparently Jews were given the one exemption to this rule: under an agreement they negotiated with Alexander the Great, they weren’t required to honor any secular ruler. The Roman Empire inherited this agreement and therefore permitted Jews to practice their religion without deifying Caesar.
Eventually, of course, Christianity came along. At first the Romans treated the Christians as a Jewish sect and left them alone…but then the Jewish authorities made a point of saying, “Uh, those guys aren’t with us.” The Romans listened to them and deemed Christianity a separate, illegal religion, and massive persecution of Christians followed. By the time Constantine stopped the persecution in about 312 (Christianity was declared a cult around the 60s…you do the math), many Christians had built up a bit of a grudge against the Jews.
I’d never heard this theory before, and apparently most of you haven’t either, but Abanes’ book seems extremely well-documented, so it’s probably an accurate history.
Now there’s a logical answer! And with evidence to boot!
Sounds as good as any other theory proposed.
I should think it would be even more annoying to penniless rag-wearers who would like to work.
How so?
What’s stopping the penniless rag-wearers who want to work from going out and getting a job?
I think I’ll kick this thread over to Great Debates.