A jewish question

Great Debates
1

First, let me start off by stating that if this needs to be moved, then moderators please move it. This is a serious question, but if it turns into a flame war, or a great debate, it should be moved.

Now then… I have a friend of mine that is jewish, and I have been asking him questions about his religion. Now, personally, I don’t care what religion anyone is, but the question that kept coming up in my mind is why Jews seem to have been singled out for persecution? Clearly, other religions have had their share of problems, but this guy continuosly tells the stories of the poor, maligned jews. OK, they don’t believe that Jesus was the messiah, but with religious freedom being what it is in this country, it can’t be all that, can it? I mean, there is a lot of hatred of jews in this country even today… so I asked myself (OK… since I didn’t know I asked others) why?

A number of comments came up… one thing that almost everyone said (and this includes the Jewish people that I asked) was that jewish people are very tight knit or “clannish” and this extends to people they don’t even know. I had one jewish woman admit to me that if she had to let someone go in her department, and it was between someone she knew was a good worker that was a non-jew and a not so good worker that was a jew, she would keep the jew out of “an obligation”. (Hmmm… I mean, what the hell is that?) But she admitted that this is probably one reason there might be underlying resentment. This goes to another point… that jewish people are thought to “take care of” and “look out for” each other. One person told me of a recent layoff in her company… everyone that was laid off in her department (as far as she knew) was non-jewish. That’s no big deal, but there are a number of Jewish folks that are in the department. To the level that the dept. manager is Jewish, the dept. mgr’s 2 direct reports are Jewish, and one of the direct reports has 4 direct reports… all jewish. Coincidence, perhaps… but it was one of those things that stuck out.

Another comment that I heard was that there is such an aversion to being labeled an “anti-semite” that people shy away from any questions or comments that may shed some bad light on jewish culture.

I also heard that there is a lot of irritation that Jewish people seem to dominate the media… television, radio, newspapers, movies… and they are able to control messages to the huddled masses, and therefore control perceptions.

Could it have something to do with class envy?

So how about it, dopers… any thoughts on this? Anything to add? subtract? refute?

Also, as a follow-up legal question. Could there be a discrimination suit filed against my friend’s company by one of the displaced workers based on religion? They have discrimination against everything else, but how in the world would you prove it? Certainly seems that there could be a bias against (or for) a certain religion…

Again, I’m not trying to start a hate thread. I’d really like to know what people think. And no I’m not an anti-semite… (I’m really not anti-anything. Just do your thing and leave me alone.) I’m just trying to understand underlying causes of the ill-feeling that seems to exist.

2

I agree that this will probably get moved soon, but I’ll throw out a couple thoughts:

First, as far as persecution goes, I think that a big part of the problem is that Jews traditionally live as minorities in many different countries. This makes us somewhat vulnerable to perecution. Also, many Jews are reluctant to assimilate into the culture of whatever country we live in.

One can imagine that in the past, there were many other persecuted minorities who were either assimilated into larger populations or simply wiped out by Hitler types.

3

Read “Tribes” by Joel Kotkin. It supports lucwarm’s comments. The Jews are not unique. The overseas Chinese in SE Asia are similar in having a long tradition of looking after themselves in a hostile environment, specialising in particular trades, etc etc.

A review of Tribes (plucked from random off Google but it seems, er, kosher :)) - http://wjcohen.home.mindspring.com/tribes.htm

4

So, do Jews attempt to assimilate into the countries where they are a minority? Or do they refuse to assimilate?

I’ve always wondered, since I’ve heard that Jews consider themselves a race of their own.

5

Jews don’t consider themselves a race at all. Jewish is a religion. Israelites have a nationality. And we don’t refuse to assimilate, but sometimes isolation is forced upon us due to antisemitism.

The OP discusses how non-Jews have been discriminated in the workplace. Of course if you can prove that, you have a course of action. But do you, as a non-Jew, know how it is to go through childhood as a Jew? I had to hide my religion, and pretend I was German, not to be beat up. (My last name can be either Jewish or German, depending how you pronounce it.)

Why have we been persecuted? Because there are many people who don’t like those who are different from them. They also don’t like what they don’t understand. That’s a big part of it.

6

Persecution is by no means unique to Jews. We are simply more aware of it because Jews happen to be a significant, visible minority in the West, which is currently controlled by Christians. Had you been doing your wondering in Medieval Arabia, you may well had asked why Christians are such a target of persecution. Under Muslim rule, Christians were considered dhimmis (an Arabic euphemism literally meaning “protected people”) and were subject to humiliating poll taxes and discriminatory laws. The lot of Hindus under Islam was even worse; they did not even have the Jews’ and Christians’ privilege of being treated as second-class citizens. Muslim hatred of Hindus persists to this century; countless thousands were slaughtered in the 1947 partition of India, and even now the Taliban’s cruel anti-Hindu laws are well known. The situation for Afghani Hindus is unlikely to considerably improve with the impending change of government.

Of course, Muslims aren’t the only ones meting out persecution. There were stringent anti-Muslim laws in Christian Spain until recently. The intimidation, and in some case outright brutalizing, of religious folk by Soviet-style governments is well-documented. China has no great love of Falun Gong.

So why is there religious oppression in general? It all has to do with political power and control of resources. When any one group, religious or otherwise, becomes politically active and threatens the existing ruling class with its disenthronement or deprivation of its land or property, that ruling class, acting in its own interests, attempts to disempower the impinging group through propaganda, legal sanctions, and/or violence. Minority groups which have been subdued can be permanently subjugated and exploited for the ruling class’s benefit by way of discriminatory laws, disparate wages, excessive taxation, and so on. The rest of the population simply goes along with it because they’ve never been taught anything different and accept the societial prejudices as normal.

7

  1. “And Jacob heard Laban’s children saying “Jacob has taken all that belongs to our father, and from our father’s possessions he has made this great estate””.

  2. “And the Egyptians said “the Jews are many, and too strong for us. Let us wisen to them, lest they multiply, and should there be a war they join our enemies and rise up against us””.

I think these themes have summed it up ever since.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by barbitu8 *
**

This is admittedly a very controversial issue, which has been debated on this board before. But many Jews consider Judaism to encompass more than a set of religious beliefs. I always explain it by saying that Jews are a people, and Judaism is an identity. It is entirely possible to be Jewish and to be an atheist. There are historical, genetic, and cultural elements to Judaism that have nothing to do with observance of Torah or attendance at synagogue.

When I am asked questions about my family background and ethnicity, I always reply that my family is Jewish. Wherever they lived (in my case, Germany, Austria, and Russia), my ancestors were Jews – a people apart. Often Jews were isolated by force, restricted to living in particular areas. The original ghetto was an area of the Italian city of Venice where Jews were required to live behind gated walls.

Even where Jews were allowed to mingle with everyone else, as in London, for example, they were set apart by their customs and observances. They grew beards even when it was not the fashion, they ate their own peculiar foods, they spoke their own languages. Because of this they were ridiculed, harassed, discrimated against, and sometimes murdered.

If I can invoke the Nazis without triggering Godwin’s law, I’d also like to point out that Hitler killed Jews without regard for their religious observances. Many of the Jews living in Germany before WWII were not religious. Many were well-assimilated into the community, owners of businesses, members of organizations, active participants in their neighborhoods. Their position was eerily similar to that of Jews in America today. And yet they were murdered because their ancestors and their culture made them Jewish.

An argument that is often raised against the “tribe” approach to Judaism is that it is possible to convert to Judaism. It is important to understand the difference between conversion to Judaism and conversion to Christianity. Converts to Christianity must swear faith in a creed – they must share Christians beliefs. Converts to Judaism must become Jews. They must join with the Jewish people, taking on their rituals, their responsibilities, and their history. According to Jewish law, a person who has converted is no different from one who is born Jewish. The convert becomes a member of the tribe.

There is nothing mysterious or sinister about the Jewish people. But even in a country where religious freedom is (presumably) absolute, we are still a people. We share a powerful heritage with other Jews that draws us closer together, in the same way that various other groups in this country are drawn together by shared history, customs, and beliefs. In no way does this make it O.K. for Jews to discrimate against non-Jews, or for non-Jews to discrimate against Jews. If you truly feel that there is discrimation going on at your company, you should report it to management or to the EEOC. But remember that prejudice begins when you judge a group of people by the actions of a few, or try to label an entire group as being a certain way.

9

Eh.

Jews see themselves as an am, a People. That’s not quite the same thing as a race… but it’s not totally different, either.

10

True, Alessan, but the main point is that you can’t convert to a race. You can, however, convert to Judaism.

Zev Steinhardt

11

Yeah, but you can marry into a family, or join a tribe.

Why are converts required to go to regular synagogue servics? Not to learn about Judaism, or to nurture their inner faith - at least not primarily. They go to join the community.

12

I have been bemused on occasion to hear people say (in the same conversation) that “Jews are clannish” and that one would, for example, keep another Jew on the job even though he were less qualified than the Gentile next to him, clearly implying that this is A Bad Thing,
BUT
Mormons, Masons, and I forget what other groups “stick together and take care of each other,” clearly implying tht this is A Good Thing.
And I have heard people do this without the slightest sense of irony.
My guess is that people simply have to have somebody to blame, and Jews have always been good targets. (I am most sorry that these days, Arabs seem to have taken on that role) Several years ago Max Dimont wrote a series of books that I thought offered the most thoughtful view of the issue I had then seen. One was called “Jews, God, and History” Perhaps revisiting them would be worthwhile.

13

There are no simple answers to these questions, so I’ll move this thread to Geat Debates.

bibliophage
moderator GQ

14

It would be one thing if the Christians simply resented the fact that Jews do not accept their messiah. But to many Christians, the Jews did far worse then that. They blame the Jews, collectively, as a group, for the death of that messiah. Now that is something which can inspire real hatred!

Granted that the Pope exonerated the Jews for this in the 1960’s. But not all Christians accept that. And even among those who do, deeply-ingrained feelings of over 1900 years do not go away so quickly.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by barbitu8 *
**

But sometimes I’ve met someone, and later a third person mentions that person was Jewish, as though I’m supposed to have guessed it. I’ve gone: “Oh, I didn’t realise.”

Then I’ve been made to feel really stupid, as though I was supposed to have been able to tell. But I can’t. No offence to Jews or anyone, but not all Jews look the same! No more can I tell whether I’m speaking to an Indian hindu or Indian muslim, or an English protestant or English catholic, etc.

And more to the point, I couldn’t really care less what religion they are. As long as they manage to tell me if they don’t eat pork if I suggest a bacon sandwich, it really makes very little difference to me what religion they are.

16

Mr. Blonde wrote:

Didja ever see the 1947 movie Gentlemen’s Agreement?

Having grown up in post-civil-rights-era America, I never really got a feel for how deep and pervasive anti-semitic sentiment was in the U.S. until I saw Gentlemen’s Agreement. If that movie was anywhere near representative of real life in 1940s America, 1940s America must’ve been appalling toward jews.

The movie still didn’t answer why this was so, but it did give me a much-needed perspective on the issue.

17

This article:

examines 6 classic reasons given for hatred of the Jews and tries to dispell each one as an excuse and not the “true cause”. The six reasons it lists are:

  1. Economic: We hate the Jews because they possess too much wealth and power.
  2. Chosen People: We hate the Jews because they arrogantly claim they are the chosen people.
  3. Scapegoat: The Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles.
  4. Deicide: We hate the Jews because they killed Jesus.
  5. Outsiders: We hate the Jews because they are different than us.
  6. Racial Theory: We hate the Jews because they are an inferior race.
18

The accusation of “clannishness” is illogical, if you realize that any person who faces hatred or persecution on the basis of their religious beliefs, skin color etc. is somewhat likely to seek refuge with other people who share those beliefs/attributes. Ironically, some Jews who take part in group activities of non-Jews are maligned as “pushy”.**

Yes, Mr Blonde, some media outlets are owned by Jewish people. Would you be willing to cite examples of how these outlets “control messages to the huddled masses” to the benefit of Jews and the supposed detriment of non-Jews? I asked London Calling when he made his big play in GD about Jews In The Media to provide such evidence, only he was unable/unwilling to do so. Maybe you or the “irritated” people you know can supply the facts in the matter. **

Of course, just as members of any ethnic/religious group could be sued. Do you have any evidence (in citable form) that Jews are more guilty of discriminatory employment practices than any other group?**

Mr. Blonde:“this guy continuosly tells the stories of the poor, maligned jews.”

Mr. Blonde, if you’re concerned about being labeled an anti-Semite, take a look at your own comments. Talking about the “poor, maligned jews” in this manner has a snide tone you’d do well to avoid.**

Mmmmm.

You’ve gotten a respectful hearing from Jews responding in this thread. I’m not sure about your motivations. If you have factual, documented examples of negative behaviors that you feel are characteristic of Jews as opposed to non-Jews, that concern you and you wish to discuss, you’re at little risk here of being labeled an anti-Semite.

19

IANAJ, but I have to say that I detected a bit of a “tone” to the OP, which wasn’t helped by the thread title. About the only thing that could have made me suspect a little bit of Jew-baiting more would be if the title had been “The Jewish question”…

jayjay

20

Just to elaborate on a point made earlier.

The use of a different language in the presence of others who do not understand that language is often felt as exclusionary. The European Jewish community’s use of Yiddish as a lingua franca can not have helped their attempts at ameliorating their social standing.

I live in Southern California and have seen friends of mine who are otherwise normal unbiased folks (at least from asking them) get kind of antsy about Mexican-Americans speaking Spanish around them. I think the topic of foreign languges in the presence of others has been covered in some other thread, so I won’t go on here, but it’s still for some unsettling. I, for one, speak Spanish so I am not spooked by this particular language thing.

To give myself some further rope, music in a culture is often exclusionary. Popular young people’s music is, by its nature, not to be enjoyed by older folks. I like my music; my niece likes hers. I have no idea of what she is thinking.

So, picture different cultures in proximity for hundreds of years. You’ve got different languages, you’ve got different music, you’ve got a certain amount of feeling excluded. Any time someone is excluded they are going to feel resentful. And it doesn’t matter if the excluding party is on the bottom of the pecking order.

My upshot is this: people make biased decisions for a great deal of reasons.

You’re from my part of the country?
Great.
You’re a fan of my sports team?
Great.
You go to chapel with my brother?
Great.

But let those day-to-day decisions build up over a few hundred years and you can have some serious hatred. The NFL has only been in existence for 70 years or so but it don’t take much to get a beef goin’ between Browns and Steelers fans.

I have intentionally left out the religious aspect of differences in opinion. People can come up with topics over which to kill each other without bringing God into it. That may sound counter to the “Christ-Killer” label but I feel that general, mundane aspects of cultural differences are more important.