About them Jews

This post was intended for “Why did the Japanese side with Hitler? And what was (is) the basis of Anti-Semitism?”, part II, but I was asked to open a new thead or else. So, here I am.

<<My take on most anti-Semitism is that it generally arises because the Jews value their faith enough to resist assimilation with other cultures.>>

Jorge suggested introducing “appearance” into this sentence. I think that “because the Jews* are perceived to value their faith…” *would fix the phrase up. As well as assuming that “other cultures” resisted assimilation of Jews more than the Jews themselves. I’d also widened “faith” or would rather replace it with “religion, culture and history”. So, the rewritten phrase would be “ anti-Semitism generally arises because the Jews value their religion, culture and history, and tend to flaunt it, especially when discriminated by the Gentiles, who resist their assimilation.”

The truth is that most peoples’ recorded history began long after the Jewish one finished, i.e., after the Roman conquest of Palestine. A few peoples, beside Jews, can claim ancient history, and most of them have their own countries and do not care much about their neighbors’ opinion. When cornered, the Jews resorted to the only thing, which made them appear worthy: their deep past. I find this “look down” attitude “natural” and human. The American Indians have used the same “strategy”, against their white conquerors: “We have lived here for thousands of years, you just came”. The African Americans have used it: “You brought our ancestors here by force, but they might have been members of ancient West African royalty”.
Respect and veneration for the elders is a modern day cultural institution; applying the same for peoples is easily understandable.

Having said that, I’d like to stress again that this “weapon” was used only in self-defense, never as a “reason” to resist being assimilated. I am pretty sure that if the Jews were scattered over the face of the Earth as they are, but never prosecuted, they would not have seen the Renaissance. (I understand the desire of the oppressed people to reach to its ancient roots as a countermeasure. This, of course, does not make them “superior”, or others “inferior”. Just “older”. “Old” and “young are non-offensive categories. Nor does it usually make sense for modern day “oppressors”: they are not personally responsible for whatever happened in the past).

As a comparison to the Jewish story, look at the Gypsies. When faced with hostility and arrogance of the host population, they stick to themselves, speak their own language and live as virtual aliens in the contries they were born. I saw nomadic Gypsies in Eastern Europe. They live in tents, several months at each place, the children attend school irregularly, if at all, and the adults are engaged in odd episodic affairs. In this country I saw Gypsies only on PBS documentary. The older ones could speak a few Romany sentences, the younger ones were indistinguishable from their “average” American neighbors. Just another example of the famous wolf/sheep effect.
Zev: I know quite a few people who would disagree with you (in Yiddish, no less). Yes, they are under 70! In some cases, even children. And yes, they speak it as a first language.

I know them too, Zev. But the trend is here, the numbers are rapidly going down. “Assimilation” is real, not “appearing”.

To my shame, I’m not familiar with “The Anguish of the Jews”, will try to read it as soon as possible. But if there was “pre-Christianity anti-Semitism”, it refutes many common misconceptions about actual, not “ bogus anti-Christ” causes of it.

I’d like to ask Tom and all others who may have possible answers: what’s the origin of “the chosen people”? When did it start” By whom? In other words, was it a part of “self-defense” of was it the name given to the Jews?

Finally, about the “success”. First of all, do not think that what you see in today’s America, is ubiquitos. Secondly, as others noted, it’s not unique: the Chinese in the Pacific, etc. In other words, the circumstances stimulate best. This phenomenon was disscussed in previous threads. Other things to ponder: there was no other way to survive, if you are not “successful”, you perish, no “safety net” was provided. The Jews had to be at least twice as good as the Gentiles, to make it. Mind-boggling poverty of the Eastern European Jews in 17-19 centuries notwithstanding, Jewish “success” is akin to the “success” of the fist/second generation immigrants. For the purpose of this discussion, the Jews may be considered “eternal immigrants” in most Diaspora countries.

I haven’t reviewed the thread this seems to have spawned, but the roots of anti-Semitism in Europe IMHO were due, ultimately, to usury being forbidden for Catholics but permitted for Jews for many many generations. Because Jews could lend money at interest that gave them a leg up at becoming wealthy members of society, and this percieved wealth through what many considered immoral means caused a hatred which went beyond mere cultural differences. Even though the RCC eventually gave a thumbs up to usury (due partly no doubt to several Popes which came out of a wealthy family of fiananceers) the perception continued well into the 20th century, and unfortunately for the poor Jews of Europe, they were lumped in with their wealthy cousins when the insane desperation of the depression in Germany (and perhaps Communism in Russia) came to a head.

I’ve heard the usury theory before…the problem with it is, the reason some Jews went into moneylending was because other occupations were banned. There was a church council in the 6th century…whose name I can’t remember, banned Jews from most of the occupations. It said that no Jew could be a doctor or a midwife to non-Jews, no Jew could work in a specialized craft (carpentry, masonry, etc.), and, in general, restricted occupations. Christian anti-semitism (which we saw in Europe in the late Roman period and middle ages), if I had to take a WAG, seems based on the Christian principle, “Jesus came to save us all. He came to the Jews first, who rejected him. The Jews still reject him, not realizing that only Christians are “really” Jews”. There was, I think, that idea of a progression…that Christianity was Judaism “completed”, if that makes sense.

Can I get a cite on that? I wouldn’t be surprised that there may have been some sort of separate-but-equal policy set in Europe at some point, but the 6th century seems awfully early for that sort of thing.

Actually, I did misspeak…this is what happens when you work from memory…the councils of Orleans in the 6th century banned Jews and Christians from marrying, and people from converting to Judaism. http://remember.org/guide/History.root.classical.html

I think it also forbade Jews to have Christian slaves…but that isn’t listed in the site above.

The discussion originated on [url=“http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=47070”]Why did the Japanese side with Hitler? And what was (is) the basis of Anti-Semitism?
[/quote]

I had thought that the only real confusion was that my original statement could be taken to mean “The Jews bring it on themselves.” (which I would never have said and I think that my later posts were clearer), so I’m not sure exactly what the discussion, here, will be.

I don’t have a problem with your re-worked statement, except that I see no reason to include the phrase

and I’m not sure that the Jews were “guilty” of a “look down” attitude (your phrase) on every/any occasion in which they were persecuted. (Once the persecution began, it is probable that they (legitimately) felt morally superior to their persecutors, but I am not aware of any evidence that a “superior attitiude” prompted persecution.)
There may have been times when Jews made a point of deliberately “standing out,” but I cannot think of any. As I noted in the other thread, I think persecution begins when state religions tend to demand observance from all citizens and Jews resist participating in those religions to any extent that will violate their own religion. Since state religions (not necessarily theocracies) have been pretty common throughout history, there have been numerous occasions for Jewish groups to find themselves in conflict with their current governments.

I’m not sure where you are going with this statement. It is certainly true that Jews have flourished under more secular governments (Babylon from 600 BCE - 700 CE–excepting the period 226-250 when the Zoroastrian priests of the Persian government attempted to wipe them out–the Moorish government of Spain through the middle ages, the Netherlands after the Reformation, the U.S. today). It is also true that several religious persecutions have been aimed at the Jews that did not involve Christianity (the emperor worship demanded for Antiochus IV, Nero, and Domitian, the Zoroastrian priesthood, the earliest establishment of Islam–although once secure, Islam behaved in a nearly secular manner, making Jews and Christians second-class citizens, but not actively trying to suppress them).

The “Jews as Christ killers” lie did not really even appear until the call for the crusades in the twelfth century. There were various agitations to oppose Jews because they had not accepted the teachings of Jesus in the Christian world, but only Theodosius (5th century) and Justinian (6th century) in the east actually carried out active persecutions. In western Europe, laws that “regulate” Jews are often similar to laws to “regulate” pagans. While they were certainly often treated as second-class citizens, they were generally allowed to earn their livings without too much interference for almost 1100 years.

Regarding usury and interest: The Christian Church forbade Christians from loaning with interest to Christians as early as the fourth century, but those laws were allowed to have numerous loopholes until closed by civil authorities in the (now notorious) 12th century.

I’m afraid that is simply incorrect. Jews as “Christ-Killers” was around well before then.

John Chrysostom said:

Chrysostom, a major church offical, was born in 347.

Zev Steinhardt

For God’s sake man, quit “using” quotes “around” every “other” word; it makes your post damn hard to read (and not all of them are even correct usages anyway).

As for “separate but equal”, it’s fairly clear that it existed throughout at least a good bit of Europe’s history (I don’t know how far back it goes); the word “ghetto” was originally a designation for the Jewish section of a city, and some examples of very old ones can be seen all over Europe (I’ve personally seen Venice).

I stand corrected. On the other hand, (while we can probably find similar statements from earlier periods of Christianity, as well), I am not aware that the phrase was used to whip up the crowds and incite persecution in western Europe prior to the twelfth century. (It may have been used in Byzantium, I’m not sure.)

I’d have to do more checking myself on that matter. But, in the end, does it matter whether the “Christ-killer” line is used to incite the crowds, or any of the other horrible things people like Chrysostom and Luther have said?

Zev Steinhardt

I can’t wait for the ordered copy of “The Anguish of the Jews”.
If antisemitism existed 2300 years ago, it may change the thrust of our interesting discussion considerably. It’s no secret that neighbors usually do not like each other, but “anti-Semitism” implies universal dislike of the Jews. If it existed before Jesus was born…
And I am grateful to Captain: First, the Jews are forbidden to marry Christians, then they are accused of “unwilling to assimilate because they value their faith”. Tom, I’m not sticking this again and again into your face, I’m just reminding to all of us, including myself, how easy it is to make a mistake, even if one knows all the facts, like you do, for instance.
About “flaunting it” and “looking down”, etc.
To me, it’s only human to “grab the straw” when cornered and to remind Goliath that he might be stronger, but of the two of us, I am the noble one, you are just a hulk. Left alone, one does not need this defense, or any defense. So, when isolated and oppressed and reproached of all sins, the Jews say: “At least, we are … , and this is something you cannot take from us and will never have yourselves, even if you kill us”.

I’m still not sure of your point. Would you like to see who has the older rule forbidding marriage between Jews and non-Jews? Ezra demanded that the Jews send their wives and children back to their Philistine neighbors whence they came in the 6th century BCE (not that he had a lot of luck enforcing the edict–I don’t recall, offhand, whether or not Nehemiah enforced that decision when he arrived).

At no time have I suggested that Jews actually hold themselves aloof, thus inviting persecution. I have specifically noted that the persecutions they have suffered have occurred in locations and times in which their desire to not give up their religion has brought down the wrath of their neighbors.

I have found no information indicating that Jews in Rome or the western Mediterranean region changed their customs or habits in any way between the original diasporal migrations (that actually began a couple of hundred years prior to the first Roman exile in 70 CE) and the sixth century CE. However, when surrounded by pagans and Christians under a fairly benign (pagan) Roman rule, they survived for a few hundred years without persecution. On those few occasions when the Roman emperors demanded to be worshipped (and in the periods immediately surrounding the several Jewish rebellions), they were persecuted. (At least two of the three most violent rebellions had distinctly religious overtones to them, as well.) Similarly, when the western Roman Empire shattered, there was a period of over 600 years in which the majority of Jews in northern and western Europe were not persecuted. There were laws passed at various times (both ecclesiastical and, occasionally, secular) that put restraints on Jewish lifestyles and business opportunities, yet the number of times that the laws were re-created and re-stated indicates that they were ignored by the people and the local governments more often than they were obeyed.
Throughout those two periods, (Roman/pagan and post-Roman/Christian) Jews still maintained their faith. In neither situation did they simply become “one” with the surrounding communities to the extent of giving up their faith. And when they were persecuted, it was on the basis of their faith.

Now, if you have taken “assimilated” to mean “wear the same clothes, speak the same language, drink the same beer or wine” then I will say let’s find a new word on which we will not get hung up. I would never suggest that Jews go out of their way to be different. (Requiring that Jews wear distinctive clothing was first imposed in one Islamic country in the ninth century and I am not sure what period it later arrived in Christian Europe.)

However, if two Frankish farmers are out grubbing adjacent fields, it is going to be pretty obvious which of them goes to synagogue on Friday night and Saturday and which of them is going to go to Church on Sunday. It is the contention of Dr. Gravetz (sp?) in his History of the Jews that those Frankish farmers lived together with almost no strife (despite government interference) for almost 600 years.

I do not contend that Jews have ever held themselves separate from their surrounding society in any way except as dictated by religion. Their persecutions have always been fomented by other people who have used that faith as either the cause or the pretext for their hatred. However, dietary laws and holding to the Sabbath (and its requirement to avoid labor) have generally been sufficient for anyone to identify Jews, regardless of any other identifying characteristic.

If it is your contention that Jews have always been separate because they have been forced to be separate, then it is up to you to explain the reasons why the Jews of the Roman Empire were not assimilated between 200 BCE and 67 CE and between 175 CE and 313 CE (before the Christians had a voice in setting rules of behavior) and why the Jews of Mesopotamia were not assimilated between 517 BCE and 726 CE, despite several periods extending over several hundred years in which they were not ordered to act separately.

I make lots of errors. I have seen no evidence that this is one of them.

A History of the Jews From the Babylonian Exile to the Present, Solomon Grayzel, PhD.,  ©1947, ©1968, New American Library, NY (HC edition, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia)

Tom, for egotistic reasons, I am glad that our discussion turned that way. It allow me to learn a lot from your posts and I hope to learn more from the references. I have no doudts that you understand the roots of anti-Semitism.

Your initial answer, though, gave me the impression that “value their faith” thing was the main reason for antisemitism, in your opinion. Cf. Coptic Church survived in the sea of Islam for nearly as long. Is it because of one reason - that the Copts “value their religion”? Or because, like Jews, they have been persecuted (in their own country)? Or because of many reasons? And, wether intended or not (I hope), your phrase sounded like old “They have only themselves to blame”.

Anyway, I think we all answered the original question. I do not want to play words here, but I think that “pretexts” should replace the original “basis for antisemitism”.

For those interested in the Origins of Anti-Semitism, I refer you to the [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=29589"]thread](
[url) where we went over it before. A lot of good ground was covered there.

I suggest you open the page and do a search for my name (ahem) ;). I reference an excellent online presentation on this exact subject.