MHand wrote:
Unfortunately, it then turns around and basically says that the true cause is that it was the Jews “who carried to the world the message of one God; of equality of all men before God; of loving ones neighbor; of helping the poor and the infirm,” as evidenced in pages like this one:
http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjd08130.htm
Modern day America is quite different from other countries in prior times. There is a level of tolerance that is unprecedented anywhere else in history.
Two hundred years ago, there was a stigma to a people that lived within a country but had a separate religion, ate only special foods (so did not interact socially with their neighbors), wore different clothes, etc. The Jews, desiring to follow their religion, could only find suitable food in their own community and thus tended to live together by choice – although, as has been said, in many cases the ghetto was forced upon them. That became circular, they were “different” because they lived apart, and they were forced to live apart because they were “different.”
They were often not allowed to practice certain professions (How could a good Christian be treated by a Jewish doctor? healing was, after all, mostly a matter of God’s blessing and superstition in the days before antibiotics.) This pushed them into “undesired” professions, such as money-lending. As another example, in the early 1900s America, many Jews went into the entertainment business – vaudeville and movie-making – which was looked down on by society. This also became circular: the Jews were not allowed in many professions, so became money-lenders, hence were accused of “controlling” the banks. There was also a practical side to that sort of hatred – if a Christian owed money to a Jew, and that Jew accidentally got killed in an anti-Jewish riot, then the debt obviously disappeared. Shakespeare’s audiences thought it wonderfully amusing that Shylock the money-lender is cheated out of being repaid for his loans.
This circularity can be seen in most of the areas that MHand listed above.
The hatred of Jews has had a much longer period of time to fester than most other ethnic or religious hatreds. While one can trace it (as Izzy does, back to Biblical times), I think modern anti-semitism probably starts with selected New Testament passages. The early Christians sought to work within Judaism but were rejected, and so turned to the pagan world for converts, and lashed out fairly viciously at the stubborness of the Jews for clinging to their religion. Mohammed did the same, when he founded Islam, and for the same reasons.
From then on, of course, the circularity starts in. The Jews are hated and persecuted for being different, and that pushes them together and makes them more clannish, which maeks them perceived as “different” which makes persecution easier.
Through the last 2,000 years, there have been a few havens where Jews lived in peace and harmony and acceptance with the predominant society. Surprisingly, most of these periods were within Islamic countries. In the last 150 years, America has been the ONLY country that allowed Jews to live and worship within a range of acceptance. Granted, there was discrimination against Jews, but there wasn’t out-and-out murderous persecutions. This is why there is a large and thriving Jewish community in the United States. This is also why Jews in the U.S. have usually been in the forefront of civil rights movements.
P.S. - on the topic of Jews as a “race” or “religion”, you might check out the brilliantly written Staff Report: Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish?
CK Dexter Haven:
you have just said it all…
The OP would do well to read “A History of the Jews,” by Paul Johnson; it is an excellent read which would answer pretty much all his questions.
I wrote:
However, I did notice one insight on that website that seems marginally useful in this discussion. On the page at http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/yjd07100.htm, they quote following passage from the diary of Anne Frank:
“We can never become just Netherlanders, or just English, or representatives of any other country for that matter. We will always remain Jews.”
Anne Frank seemed to be aware of a strong cultural identity that travelled with her jewish brethren wherever they went. They didn’t become Netherlanders, or Englishmen, or members of any other nation when they moved around. They stayed members of a jewish culture who just happened to live in the Netherlands or England or other countries. Perhaps Anne Frank felt that jews didn’t try to fit in, that jews wanted to always place themselves apart from whoever their next-door neighbors were.
The same can certainly be said about other cultures (e.g. the Gypsies, which Hitler also tried to exterminate), but there aren’t as many members of these other cultures around as there are jews. Part of the deal may simply be that until the re-founding of the Country of Israel, all the millions upon millions of jews in the world had no one place they could call their “jewish homeland.”
Wonder what’s become of Mr. Blonde? He seems to have vanished after posting his “serious question”.
Either we’ve provided all the answers he needs, or he’s achieved his goal of dropping a load of tired stereotypes and unsupported anecdotes.
Which is it, Mr. B.?
For you sir (or madam) I would like to say FUCK YOU!
I asked a number of questions that perhaps in your mind weren’t worthy… or jew-baiting… or whatever. But to me they were serious because I wanted to know. If the question isn’t worded correctly or the questions make you uncomfortable, then I’m sorry. But the thread wasn’t to bash… it was to learn. So again, FUCK YOU. From your posts, it appears that you are jewish… good for you. But your over-sensitivity and eagerness to call someone an anti-semite is inappropriate. Just because I, or someone else, poses a question that in this politically correct culture is viewed as touchy, doesn’t mean we are evil. Maybe it means we are interested in learning. Jewish or not, Jackmannii, you are an asshole.
For the rest of the posters, including the jewish responses, thank you. There has been a lot of light shed on the subject and my questions, and for that I’m appreciative.
Do I have cites? No. Again, these were conversations that I have been having with a jewish friend and others. These are stereotypes, thoughts, comments, etc. that I and others have heard, and I was curious as to the underlying reasons why the jews are so hated in the world. With what’s going on in the world today, (and as I am not jewish) I thought it was a topic worthy of discussion.
I do not apologize for that.
I’m not a moderater and probably am out of turn in posting this, but Mr. Blonde, you are new to this Board, so I will inform you that vituperations against other Board members are not appropriate in any forum except the Pit. Perhaps Jackmanni misinterpreted your attitude. Other posters appear to have done so, too. If that be the case, naturally you would be upset, but the appropriate thing to do is post a proper reply, unless you take it to the Pit.
Mr. Blonde
[Moderator Hat ON]
Well, I am a moderator. Mr. Blonde, it is not acceptable to call people names or tell them “FUCK YOU” in this forum. If you must insult someone, do it in the BBQ Pit forum (but even there, there are limits).
[Moderator Hat OFF]
You’ve made your motivations abundantly clear, Mr. Blonde.
You’ve had ample opportunity here to cure your ignorance. You’ve learned nothing and show no inclination to do so.
If you want to find out what’s really “hated in the world”, not to mention this message board, continue advertising your bigotry.
You’re worth no more of my time in this or any other forum.
First, to Gaudere, barbitu8 (and anyone else I offended in this forum) my humblest apologies. You are correct that an outburst such as mine should have been reserved for the pit, if at all. I was annoyed, but that’s no excuse.
And for Mr. Jackmannii… I can’t say that I’m crushed that I am not worthy of your time. Read back through the responses and you will see some excellent information… C K Dexter Haven, for example, gave some great insight and suggested readings.
Your selection of a quote out of my post doesn’t indicate anything, especially any “motivation” I may have. I have none (at least none that would satisfy you). Perhaps it is you that has the motivation and the agenda. Why so defensive? Why so angry and quick to judge? You read a couple of postings and you know me and my motives. Who’s stereotyping now?
I asked for history and context. I think I’ve been given some good information.