Why aren’t US comics doing as well as Japanese comics? Probably a lack of little girls’ panties.
Cut to the news story. :eek:
Okay, I’d like to see some titles in the genres of science fiction, horror, combat and action/adventure which don’t feature long underwear characters, have stories with definite beginnings, middles and ends and don’t go on forever and forever and don’t cross over to six or seven other titles. Can you tell me of any that are being published on a regular basis today? Bear in mind I’m probably not inclined spend more than $10 or $15 a month on comics, and I definitely don’t want to have to read 15 or 20 books to get up to speed as to setting and back story.
Fables*
Swamp Thing
Sandman (Gaiman version, of course)
Hellblazer*
Sandman
Lucifer*
Y: The Last Man*
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Promethea (superhero, but an unconventional one)
Sgt. Rock*
Jonah Hex (you didn’t ask for Westerns, but I’ll throw it in there).*
*Titles still ongoing
And that’s just off the top of my head. And all from DC and subsidiary imprints (see also The Walking Dead from Image, Hellboy and Sin City from Dark Horse). I could go on all day like this. Superhero comics are perhaps the majority of American comics, certainly the dominant ones in terms of sales and popularity, but there’s so much more out there. If you’re not poisoned against American Comics, I could probably find something for any taste from an American publisher very easily at my comics store.
The problem isn’t that these other genres aren’t out there, it’s just that people aren’t aware of them, so they aren’t as profitable, so the big names concentrate on the superheroes, so the other stuff doesn’t get into the public eye, so they aren’t as profitable…
Okay. Now insert some titles with strong FEMALE leads that wear signifigantly more than a thong and a strap across the chest, and don’t languish in torment til the male lead saves her. You can probably come up with, what, three? The manga books my daughter reads is full of strong female characters. They’re the rule instead of the exception.
Wow. I didn’t think you could do it. Next payday I think I’ll check out Sgt. Rock and two or three of the other titles you’ve listed. Thanks.
That’s closer to being true. But that’s changing. Thank god.
In the meantime, try the following:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (that’s cheating, I know)
Birds of Prey
Wonder Woman (Rucka’s just completed run, at least)
Queen and Country
Gotham Central
Strangers in Paradise
Promethea
Fables (Snow White kicked Prince Charming to the curb long ago and is one of the few that can stand up to the Big Bad Wolf)
Y: The Last Man (male protagonist, but he’s being contantly saved by the competent females around him, not vice versa, and it’s go interesting things to say about gender as well, it’s one of the few titles that I’d call outright feminist)
It’s two things, IMO: the “genre vs. medium”, and the “comic book stores vs. mainstream bookstores”.
I am a huge fan of American animation, certainly more than Japanese. I am exactly the kind of “new blood” that the comic book industry should be pursuing. There’s only one catch: I like very few superhero-type stories. Now, through the glory of the SDMB, I’ve learned about a bunch of the other stuff that’s out there, and have been able to experience some of it. That said… advertisements? Market visibility? Stuff that comic “fan” friends talk about? Stuff I would have any remote chance of discovering on my own? The answers to all of these questions isn’t the stuff I’ve found and enjoyed, it’s long and boring series that end with -man. That’s a shame, IMO, but it’s the reality of how comics are presented (and by extension perceived) in the US.
The other problem is the whole “comic book store” thing. The “knowledgable owner” is a nice thing to have, as is the much deeper selection of comics than you’d be likely to find in a theoretical comics section at Barnes and Noble. That said… all kinds of issues. It feeds into the stereotypes that people who read comics are “apart” from the “cool people”. When you look at the other stuff comic book stores generally carry (CCGs, D&D-type stuff, etc - which I love but come with all sorts of their OWN stereotypes), it just reinforces the medium as “something for those geeky kids who have nothing else to do after school”. Accessibility: Manga are right next to the sci-fi section in bookstores, usually, and are easy to sort of browse right into; no one ever really “browses into” a comic book store. Plus, there’s always a cute girl with the stereotypical “geek-glasses” looking at the manga to try to impress 
Put all of this together, and you don’t have new people accessing the medium. The conception that “everyone who reads comic books lives in their mother’s basement pretending to be Spider-Man all day” eventually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the only other people who discover comic books do so almost by accident by virtue of the industry’s “strategy”.
(Personal aside: the titles! A lot of the stuff Menocchio mentions is pretty good, but all the titles are STILL exactly what you’d expect from “dorky comic books”. It’s like looking at a book with a pink cover and titled “Passion” - it could be the greatest piece of literature ever and you’d still associate it with trashy Danielle Steele novels)
:rolleyes:
See, it’s this kind of stuff that gets my goat. You don’t know what you’re talking about, but you think that you’ve got a handle on the whole medium. Now, there are certainly stroke books out there and there will be as long as Ed Benes keeps getting work. But there’s a ton of creepy-as-hell pervy manga around too – check Lou’s link – you just don’t know about it.
–Cliffy
I’d just like to hijack and say that “Strangers in Paradise” is one of the best written books, and has been for quite a while.
Oh, and is Jane’s World still being published–my shop stopped carrying it, but it was due to a general lack of interest in the midwest – I don’t think it appeals to many, but it was getting really good when it disappeared.
OK, how about American comics that deal with a young girl going to college and struggling to fit in … without any super-powers involved. Or a comic about a girl who wants to join a volleyball team in high school, but her mother won’t allow her to. (Think “Bend it Like Beckham”, but for comics.)
American comics, IMO, have grown out of the “juvenile” stage that existed before Frank Miller, Alan Moore, etc., came around in the 1980s and opened the door for making things darker and more mature. The problem now is that it’s still just sci-fi/fantasy or war–only grittier. Now, grownups have lots of options if they want to read gritty comics … but kids (and women/men not inclined to read about violence/fantasy) have few options.
American comics is like having the Sci Fi Channel as your only TV station. Manga offers a few more channels (although, since sexual mores are different in Japan, few things that anyone younger than teens can read safely–no “Nickelodeon” of Manga, save for Fruits Basket and one or two others). Where’s the Project Runway of American Comics? The American Idol? The My Name is Earl or the Friends or the General Hospital? That’s why Manga will continue to expand into the American mainstream, until American publishers decide to make American Manga.
Says the man who never met me. Ah, the irony. Just because I spoke to only one aspect of anime doesn’t mean I’m totally oblivious to the rest. Actually, there’s tons of manga that’s not only creepy as hell pervy, but downright porn. IIRC, the reason anime porn is so prevalant on Japanese internet sites is due to their nudity laws (someone please correct me if that’s not the case). You’re able to show a lot more with anime, since the characters aren’t “real.”
I asked a poker buddy of mine (whose comic shop we play in every other Saturday night) why he felt these Japanese imports went through these occasional spurts. He admitted he hates carrying the stuff, but the popularity ensures revenue from a different fan base than ordinary comics. He basically backed up what crocodil and mgibson said earlier in this thread. Comics is basically a specialized market, no matter what the story line. Manga appeals to a wider range of people, there are more story lines, although he doesn’t cary any of the pervy stuff.
Oh, and Menocchio, thank you. I appreciate your response.
CRAP! Sorry about getting your name wrong, Krokodil.
They’re there, dude:
Strangers in Paradise
Ghost World
American Splendour
Blue Monday
Love and Rockets
Every concievable genre that’s been done on TV, movies, or literature has been done in American comics. From Schindler’s List (Maus) right on down to Looney Tunes (um, Looney Tunes). It’s a problem of marketting and consumer interest, not so much of availiability.
Or until Japanese culture ceases to be cool with the kids.
And what would be American Manga?
How would it differ from all of the non-Superhero titles I’ve been listing?
I agree that American comics companies have done a poor job of getting the word out on everything that’s not superheroes, and that the comic shop system seems almost designed to keep new readers away. But don’t say that American comics haven’t been exploring all of these other genres, because that’s just false.
Amerimanga (as it is called in Japan) exists!
The two with the biggest cult following are:
Ninja High School and Gold Digger, both from Antarctic Press.
They are available in TPB format, often selling both in Comics & Manga sections, or at your local bookstore.
I can strongly recommend Gold Digger.
Ninja High School? It varies according to your taste.
For a few more “slice of life”-style American comics, with stories about real people interacting, talking, falling in and out of love, growing up, and having adventures, without super powers or costumes or anything, also check out*:
Love and Rockets by the Hernandez Brothers, Jaime and Gilbert (I can’t recommend the two large hardcover collections Locas and Palomar highly enough)
Box Office Poison by Alex Robinson
Blankets by Craig Thompson
Persepolis and Persepolis 2 by Marjane Satrapi
Strangehaven by Gary Spencer Milledge
Optic Nerve by Adrian Tomine
Blue Monday and Scooter Girl by Chynna Clugston-Major
For good mysteries, crime, and noir stories (with either very little in the way of powers and costumes, or none at all), check out*:
Sin City by Frank Miller
Sleeper by Ed Brubaker and Sean Phillips (there is a prequel, Point Blank, by Brubaker and Colin Wilson)
V For Vendetta by Alan Moore and David Lloyd
Gotham Central by Ed Brubaker, Greg Rucka, and Michael Lark
Terminal City by Dean Motter and Michael Lark
Scene of the Crime: A Little Piece of Goodnight by Ed Brubaker and Michael Lark
American Century by Howard Chaykin and David Tischman
Powers by Brian Michael Bendis and Michael Avon Oeming
Fire, Goldfish, and Jinx by Brian Michael Bendis
Torso by Brian Michael Bendis and Marc Andreyko
Sandman Mystery Theatre by Matt Wagner, Steven Seagle, and Guy Davis
Road To Perdition by Max Alan Collins and Richard Piers Rayner
A History of Violence by Vince Locke and someone else I can’t remember right now… John Wagner?
Nowheresville by Mark Ricketts
The Losers by Andy Diggle and Jock
Ex Machina by Brian K. Vaughn and Tony Harris
And when you can’t escape superheroes but want something with class, quality, style, and maturity, you can’t go wrong with any of the following*:
Starman by James Robinson and Tony Harris
Catwoman by Ed Brubaker and various artists
Watchmen by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons
Planetary by Warren Ellis and John Cassaday
Less Than Heroes by David Yurkovich
Daredevil: Born Again by Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli
Batman: Year One by Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli
Justice League: A New Beginning by Keith Giffen, J.M. DeMatteis, and Kevin Maguire
Absolute Authority Volume 1 by Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch
Wildcats (anything written by Alan Moore or Joe Casey)
Stormwatch: Change Or Die by Warren Ellis and Tom Raney
X-Force: Famous, Mutant, and Mortal by Peter Milligan and Mike Allred
Hellboy by Mike Mignola
Madman by Mike Allred
*Everything I listed is available in convenient and attractive trade paperbacks, which you can get for significant discounts off cover price from Amazon.com!
I always get a little sad when I hear people like Maureen and LonesomePolecat spout off like they’re doing in this thread, because it just drives home not only how completely misinformed they are, but that they pretty much represent the average American’s ideas about “them comic books.” We could sit here and tick off hundreds of quality books for each genre and subgenre that they “challenged,” but it’s a futile effort because it’s not going to change their minds. I think that more than anything, that’s the real reason why comics are in trouble as a popular form of entertainment.
Bloody hell! For worthy superhero comics, I should have noted:
The Golden Age by James Robinson and Paul Smith
DC: The New Frontier by Darwyn Cooke
Marvels by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller and Klaus Janson (overrated and dated, but still a classic)
With all honesty, if you’re skeptical about the coolness of comics, and you’re interested in Sgt. Rock, I strongly recommend you the first Losers TPB, “Ante Up,” by Andy Diggle and Jock. Imagine a kickass action/paramilitary/heist movie with a too-cool-for-school team of roguish badasses, like The A-Team if it had a huge 2006-era budget, real drama, occasional casualties, and was actually written for discerning adults.
Huh. And here I thought I posted a sincere thanks to Menocchio for his informative post in response to me. It always saddens me a bit when someone like you comes in to a non pit thread and insults people and acts insufferable.
Again, just because you’re not aware of them doesn’t mean that they’re not out there.
Daniel Clowes’ “Eightball”
X-Force/X-Statix (hilarious social commentary from Allred and Milligan)
Slott’s She-Hulk and Great Lake Avengers were gutbustingly funny
Madman (Allred again)
Angry Youth Comix
Ivan Brunetti’s “Schizo”
Michael Kupperman’s amazing “Snake 'n Bacon’s Cartoon Cabaret” and more recently “Tales Designed to Thrizzle”
the groundbreaking novelty and gag work of Mark Newgarden, creator of “Garbage Pail Kids” and some life-changing meta-funnies work
Chris Ware’s “Piece of Shit Funnies” and fake advertisments in “Acme Novelty Library”
Bill Griffith’s continuing “Zippy the Pinhead”
Robert Crumb is still alive, working, and hilarious
Raisin Pie
Doofus
Peter Bagge’s “Hate”
Bob Fingerman’s “Minimum Wage”
and tons more.