I’m not insulting you; if not for this thread, you’d still be coasting along through life on misinformed assumptions. We can’t have the same conversation that we had with you with the rest of the people in the world, so yes, it saddens me to think that they’re all still walking around with that same mix of bizarre stereotypes and half-baked prejudices.
Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatteis’ work on Justice League (including the more recent “Formerly Known As the Justice League” and “I Can’t Believe It’s Not the Justice League”) is uniformly hilarious. For more funny takes on superheroes, check out the original run of The Tick by its creator Ben Edlund (who later went on to write and produce episodes of Angel and Firefly), or anything by David Yurkovich.
Anything Kyle Baker does is uproariously funny: the original graphic novels Why I Hate Saturn, The Cowboy Wally Show, You Are Here, and I Die At Midnight. (I should have listed them above as well.) He has a lot of more recent stuff I haven’t read yet, and he most recently worked on the Plastic Man series for DC.
Brian Michael Bendis’ Fortune and Glory is also a laugh-riot.
Um, no, you are being insulting. And judgemental, and passive aggressive. You have no idea how much I do or do not know about this particular subject; why should you? I don’t hang out in comics threads. But if this is the only way you are able to feel superior, knock yourself out.
You show me one American artist that can draw as elegantly and beautifully as Kaori Yuki, You Higuri, Yun Kouga and Yuu Watase.
Find me an American comic book that isn’t afraid to have a love story centering around two guys in the NYPD or Cesar Borgia and a peer.
Find me an American comic that centers around Heaven and Hell that includes epic battles, dark humor, a mushy love story and without T&A (the only comics I can think of that could possibly fill that are Sandman and Hellblazer but I’m not too familiar with them; also see my first point).
Find me an American comic that deals with fashion and teen high society that is on the level of Ai Yazawa’s Paradise Kiss.
Find me an American comic that your average teen girl interested in makeup, fashion, music and boys that they’ll identify with more than Sensual Phrase.
Find me an American comic that captures heavy metal, dark fantasy, skimpily clad dark elf chicks and cocky anti-heroes like Dark Schneider…wait, I guess you can do that. 
That’s why manga is so popular. There’s something for everyone (although I’ve glossed over many shonen titles and focused on stuff for girls).
Honestly, Naruto and Inuyasha are just the new Batman and Superman. It’ll die out.
FWIW, I wasn’t getting that vibe from VCO3. I can understand his frustration with the lack of knowledge of present-day comics that the general public has these days and which, nothing personal, you came in and exemplified.
And it’s not like you’re alone. Hell, I’ve wandered in and out of comic-geek phases (sticking mostly to the cape-and-tights stuff), and I’m still pretty ignorant of the more indy (read: non-Marvel, non-DC) titles that were mentioned in this thread.
Anyway, back to the manga-comics thing, to what degree do you folks think price is a factor? One volume of manga costs about $7 and runs about 200 pages (example). On the other hand, your average issue of a comic is in the $3-$4 range (correct me if I’m wrong), and has maybe 30-50 pages of content? For me, personally, the value isn’t there. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying American comics are less value–they’re generally in color, printed on a higher grade of paper, and have larger pages, for instance–but they generally seem to deliver less story per dollar.)
Along similar lines, how strongly do you think the packaging influences penetration into the market? Personally, I think the fact that the “digest” volumes of manga (read: everything in the manga section of your neighborhood bookstore) simply makes it easier for retailers to carry. Like, you know, physically. They have spines, so they can use the same shelves as the other paperbacks in the store, and, for probably some similar reason, they can/are carried by online retailers such as Amazon. Comic books, TPBs aside, don’t have these advantages.
And for “monthly” manga, multiple titles come in big ol’ magazines such as Shonen Jump and Shoujo Beat, and these are carried in the magazine section of bookstores with a minimum of fuss. (These magazines, for those who haven’t seen/read them, are the size of a small telephone book and carry one month’s worth of issues for 3 or 4 different manga titles. The “digest” volumes you see in the manga section are typically a collection of 3-4 months of stories.) Individual issues of comics, OTOH, require the spinny racks to be carried by most bookstores (as the shelves in your average comic-book store would probably hog too much floor space for your average B&N), and these racks result in some thoroughly beat up and battered comics, which incidentally does a number to their collectibility if you’re counting that as a factor. (Also, it could be my imagination, or issues selling out, but it doesn’t seem as if chain bookstores carry much in the way of back issues.)
Now, arguably in the American comic-book industries favor (or at least negating some of the disadvantages listed above) are the good ol’ TPBs. They’re books, and so all bookstores can shelve/stock them with no particular fuss. OTOH, as far as the superhero titles are concerned at least, they contain only a single story arc, often handle multi-title crossovers inefficiently (yay, I get to buy 13 TPBs to get the whole House of M arc!), and/or are kind of “jumpy” WRT larger story arcs as individual issues are skipped because they fall between TPB-able arcs.
It looks like some of this may have changed, for the superhero folks, with Marvel’s Ultimate titles? If I collect all the volumes for, say, Ultimate Spider-Man, will there not be any breaks in continuity? I’d assume the smaller titles don’t have these issues with their TPBs? (And by “smaller” I mean titles more along the lines of American Splendor than, say, Preacher.)
I don’t know if there’s any validity to any of the above, but it just feels like the American comic-book industry has failed to adapt to a retail landscape that is no longer friendly to the format of the comic books themselves, and manga doesn’t have those disadvantages and is therefore more “available” in the sense that they’re simply carried in a larger number of stores (read: Every B&N and Borders across the country rather than the relatively few that carry spinner racks, and the somewhat depressingly small number of dedicated comic-book shops). (Not saying that this is the be-all, end-all answer to the OP, but just another couple factors to consider.)
The books I’m currently buying for the girl child are running about $10/book, but I’ve seen some that run upward of $15. Likewise, graphic novels (as opposed to comic books) ran around $8 or so when I was buying them. I actually preferred the graphic novels as they weren’t a constantly running series, so had a definitive ending. Part of what you’re paying for, I think, is paper and art/reproduction quality (packaging).
Don’t know them offhand, but I’ll have to counter with Alex Ross, Arthur Adams, Will Eisner, Bruce Timm, Mike Allred, Jack Kirby, Jim Lee, Tim Bradstreet, or Howard Chaykin, just to cover a wide range of styles.
X-Force/X-Statix and The Authority are a few comics with gay lovers who are superheroes, and Gotham Central had a strong and competent lesbian police detective that wasn’t played just for tittilation.
Preacher. 'Nuff said.
Blue Monday. 'Nuff said.
Again, Blue Monday.
Elfquest, or am I being whooshed? Or also Drew Haynes’ Poison Elves, if that’s your bag.
And like some of us have been saying, there is something for everyone in American comics too, you just need to look a bit harder. The problem with American comics reaching a mass audience is one of marketing, distribution, and public relations, NOT quantity or quality. I’m disappointed you take the stance of so many mangaphiles and otaku I’ve encountered – that all manga are great and all American comics are unworthy. There’s plenty of good and bad in each medium, and many American comic fans like (or would like) manga, but so many manga readers are quick to bash American comics when you obviously know nothing about them.
Because Batman and Superman have died out since their introductions in 1939 and 1938, respectively. Yep, flashes in the pan, they were.
I can name 3 by the same (male) artist - who wrote two of them.
Ted Naifeh’s Courney Crumrin (3 4-issue minis) and Polly and the Pirates (First 5-issue mini currently running), Naifeh (although Naifeh hasn’t drawn it since issue 6) and Serina Valentino’s Gloomcookie (Ongoing).
Ignoring the books listed earlier, and just adding, there’s also Akiko, and Hack/Slash (Cassie dresses…less than conservatively, but it’s street-level skin, not spank-mag level) off the top of my head. If I went through what I read with a real eye towards answering this, I could come up with quite a few more.
Also, for good horror books - anything by Steve Niles for IDW is a good bet. They also usually have a good dose of black humour.
Hm, now here’s an interesting thought. Can American comic-book artists draw as elegantly and beautifully as a rogue’s gallery of shoujo artists? Probably. Are they inclined to? No, generally not.
VCO3 will probably have my head on a platter for saying this (or at least have half a dozen titles that prove me wrong), but American comics generally aren’t soft in the way shoujo manga (and even much of the more shonen stuff) are. Superhero comics require the men to be strong and powerful, and the women strong, voluptous, or both. In comics about love and relationships, I get the feeling that these tend to be gritty and realistic (or pessimistic, depending on your baseline for how hard/shitty relationships are) versus shoujo manga’s more romantic and idealistic bent. Either way, I’m inclined to say there’s less of a place for the soft, willowy, long-haired men of shoujo manga, though I’m willing to argue that a number of comic-book artists could do it if they were so inclined. On a similar note,
Now find me a manga artist who can do “quiet strength” the way Alex Ross can, “batshit crazy” the way Dave McKean can, and “dark and gritty” the way Frank Miller can, and I’ll buy you lunch. 
Just for a sampling, here’s Alex Ross and George Perez.
Check out Obsidian in Manhunter, or the darkly evocative beauty of Enigma
Someone’s already recommended Preacher, but be sure to check out Hellblazer.
It is discouraging to hear people deny the diversity and quality of current American comics. The list I made for LonesomePolecat (not to single him out) took no time or effort whatsoever.
But really, when it comes down to it, it’s the comic company’s own damn fault. What’s infuriating is that it isn’t the current generation’s fault, and at no point did the previous make any obvious mistakes. The direct market, the emphasis on superheroes, the emphasis on juvenile markets, they all made good financial sense given the cultural and business climates they were operating in at the time.
I’m optimistic though. I think the industry is starting to learn the right lessons from manga. Namely, accessible trade and digest formats (which isn’t always good, what works in a TPB doesn’t always work in monthly pamphlets, but nevermind), and increased attention on female markets. I also think that slowly, ever so slowly, people are starting to realize what comics have to offer. I mean, just look at how many off-genre books listed above have been turned into popular and critically acclaimed movies.
Whoa. Marvel and DC made many, many errors competing for short-term successes that cost them long-term viability and you just underlined a few.
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They pursued a long term strategy by deliberately narrowing their market share by dropping and canceling titles and focussing on one genre.
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They withdrew products from their previous ubiquitous market spaces like supermarkets and drug stores to delve into the direct market.
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They deliberately flooded the marketplace with inferior product to try and squeeze out competitors from market display spaces. By “they” I mean Marvel Comics. When this backfired, big time, the hundreds of thousands who might have been interested in comics found nothing to like, and left.
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They deliberately and permanently alienate and antagonize artists, writers and retailers by refusing to change business practices.
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They continued to ignore the diversity of competing consumer markets like the gaming, video television, and internet industries.
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They ignored the juvenile market (I don’t know where this “emphasis” is)
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They pandered to the speculation market with faddish packaging instead of concentrating on good stories and good art by good talent.
Meanwhile, what did manga do…?
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They diversified genres so their was something for everyone in all age groups.
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They kept comics easily accessible and ubiquitous while developing a direct market.
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I’ve never heard of brazen attempts to try and corner marketshare with cheaply done product.
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They have expanded manga into other media formats.
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They encourage artists and artistic successes.
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There’s distinct tradition of juvenile manga comics for teenagers and adults.
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I am totally unaware of a manga company deliberately making collectibles and faddish speculator type gimmicky comics.
I don’t see how the American comics market will ever fully recover from the missteps of the 80s and especially early nineties. I’m buying almost exclusively trades now, and I see a time where even that will stop. (.cbr format anyone?)
The one genre that sold really, really well for them. It was the obvious choice to make.
Thus saving the comics industry. It was the correct choice at the time.
It was made in 1940, when they introduced Robin and lightened Batman considerable. Comics eventually became “for kids” have the public perceptions of that have remained ever since.
The drawing style of American comics always seemed a bit harsh to me. Manga drawings tend to be more soft and flowing (and unrealistic) - which, I think, is more appealing to the majority of female readers. IMO it’s not a question of quality, per se, but more of preference.
Personally, I love the little exaggerated effects in manga drawings - the sweatdrops, the falling-on-the-face, the sparkling eyes, etc. Not something you can find in American comics, I think.
I guess to put this in perspective I’d need to know what happened to the comic sales when they stopped newsstand distributions. When I was a kid, you couldn’t go into a grocery store or a drug store without seeing a rack of comics along with the magazines. But the last time I remember that happening was in the 90s at a now-defunct drugstore chain which has a rack of (what I now know to be) Image comics near the prescription window. And the thing is, I noticed it because it was noticeable – it had been awhile since I’d seen comics in a drug store or grocery store.
I just don’t see how comics could lose all that distribution without losing a major portion of their market. I mean, nowadays, if you’re a kid, how do you get yhour hands on Superman or Batman comics (the pamphlets, not the TPs)? Is there any other venue that the Internet and comic stores?
Actually, the whole family goes to the biggest comic store in the city. It’s where we get our anime and manga. The comics are there but I’m the only one who’s ever bought any. And the one title I bought – Cavewoman. I like Cavewoman.
What are these titles with female leads who wear just a thong and a strap across the chest in US comics? 'Cause I’m not seeing any. Mostly the female leads wear skintight leotards that reveal every line of their body, except the breasts are obscured a little. All the female leads that wear thongish garments, like Red Sonja and Cavewoman, also have a little flap of fabric of some sort that covers a lot more, back and front, than the thong does. I figure there must be some kind of prohibition against wearing just a thong bottom, or someone would have tried it.
Oh, yeah, right, it’s just that mainstream readers are so prejudiced and aren’t going to change their minds … did you happen to read post #25 in this thread?
Even if, as you say, the offerings are much more varied than is generally believed, there’s still the issue of availability. I don’t know how it is in the rest of the country, but around here comics are almost completely absent from any venue other than specialty stores. Readers who aren’t hard core comics fans aren’t likely to go well out of their way to buy them. If we don’t see them at the drug store, the convenience store, or the book store, we’re unlikely to make a special trip to a comics shop on the chance that there might be something there which interests us. Comics publishers have simply got to do a better job of reaching out to mainstream readers. In particular, that means cultivating young readers. If a kid doesn’t pick up the comics habit when he’s a child or a teen-ager, he’s not likely to pick it up in his twenties or thirties. All the major publishers should make an extra effort to publish titles appealing to younger readers even if they don’t make money on them.
Comics can’t survive on hard core fans alone.
That’s very true. And one of the things I’ve noticed, and have been studying lately, is the very fine set of distinctions among manga aimed for teens. There’s 13 and up, 15 and up, 17 and up, each with a different degree of sexual content. 13 and up would include maybe some brief cartoon nudity but no naughty bits seen. 15 and up would include some nudity and a clearly sexual relationship, but no nudity WITH the sexual relationship, and the only naughty bits seen are breasts. 17 and up includes total nudity and sexual relationships, but no hardcore, with blankets and such obscuring naughty bits. Adult stuff is as hardcore as it gets.
Maybe this fine distinction in terms of content as the age level changes has a lot to do with manga’s success.
To be frank, I consider the graphic design of most American comics to be far superior to manga. There are exceptions like Vampire Hunter D, but for the most part, manga are pretty darned wrong. And that big eyes thing is fucked up.
For the record, I did get that vibe from VCO3’s post.
Your speculations about why comics are losing out to manga in bookstores makes a lot of sense. I am not up enough on bookstore retailing to know to what extent they’re true, but the simple convenience of manga TP style format vs. comic book format could explain much.