Or, you know, just kidnap you, hold you incommunicado and starve you to death.
The Catholic church took great care to hide the issues with pedophiles by moving their priests between parishes. There have been any number of fatwah’s against people who speak out against Islam. And lets not talk about Islam and cartoons or teddy bears.:rolleyes:
I think it is because people like to choose which woo woo they buy and which woo woo they poo poo.
Easy to be a bunch of hypocrites and point at Scientologists to make themselves feel better about their own beliefs. Uzi hit the nail on the head with this one, I think.
I’m not religious, but my understanding is that when a Catholic goes to confession, that is a protected conversation. Similar to counsel with a doctor or lawyer.
The whole e-meter thingy that they use is basically a throw away, bullshit, get some dirt on 'em psuedo lie detector. They dig into your personal and very, very private life and keep it in a file. A file that pretty much anyone on staff can read. When you get out of line, out comes the file. It is rumored that part of the reason they have Tom Cruise on such a short chain is because of the information in his file. I can assure you, they would/have absolutely used confidential information from those files to discredit people.
Nzinga, Seated, I think that is a pretty dismissive statement. There is much, much documentation about how scientology is most certainly not a church. It isn’t a matter of their woo woo. I have no problem with a scientologist. Believe what you want. The Church of Scientology, however, in my opinion, is evil. Not in a tin foil hat kind of evil, but really, evil. I severely doubt that you could do much reading source documents on scientology and think that the campaign against them is to make people feel better about themselves.
Unless you think the single biggest infiltration of our government by a “religion” is hunky dory. There are some good links in this thread. Instead of popping in and being judgmental, fight some ignorance, ok?
I lived in Tampa and had several occasions to go to Clearwater. Downtown is the creepiest place you’ll go. I would bet there are more cameras there than at Fort Knox. They don’t look at you. They have run off most of the businesses downtown, except for scientology owned businesses. During any protest, they cover the windows so no one inside can see what is going on outside. They actively prevent their members from accessing critical sites on the internet (google scieno-sitter) . They hurt people. Lots of them. And they are able to hurt MORE people because people have an attitude like **Nzinga. ** Being tax exempt is HUGE. Massive, massive win for them getting that.
To answer the OP: I’m fixated because they are dodging taxes to fuck with people. Not to do good, not to even try. Just to fuck with people and take their money. For every Catholic priest that is a pedophile, I’d venture there are well over 1000 that aren’t, that are pious, attempting to be righteous folk within the Church Structure. Scientology does no good to any one, except the little guy that gets the big checks.
Well said Auntbeast. While I was at work I was trying to come up with a post that adequately stated my reasons for not agreeing with the equation of Scientology with something like the Catholic Church. You did it better.
I’m not religious (although I was raised in a strongly Catholic family and left the Church when I was 14). Yes there may be some bad elements in the Catholic Church, and it may have gone through periods of corruption, but basically, its not a ‘bad’ (as in evil) institution. Its membership, in the majority, attempt to follow a virtuous life, as far as humanly possible. This involves treating others with humanity and compassion. From anyone’s point of view, given its history, practices and ubiquity, it would be hard to deny that Catholicism is a bone fide religion within the definition that we all commonly understand.
COS on the other hand, is downright malicious through and through. Sure you can say that the COS ‘belief’ system is no more ridiculous than the Catholic one, but I think you’re being disingenuous, or you don’t know the whole Xenu story. In any case, that’s not so important, because (like you perhaps) I agree that people should be free to believe what they want. The difference is, I don’t believe people should be free to harm others. There’s nothing in Catholicism that says “go out and have sex with young boys” but with COS they do say “go out and get money from them, then get more, don’t stop to you have all of it.” You see the difference here - one bad act is a human failing unconnected to the religion, the other bad act is part of the doctrine of the ‘religion’.
COS ‘teachings’ are nothing more than common brainwashing techniques in order to lull/browbeat/stupefy you in to submission. There is no life improvement for anyone except for those at the top of the COS pyramid who get the cash at the expense of the underlings.
Through most of its history it has manipulated people for its benefit, not theirs. From the inquisition to boarding schools in Ireland. Currently it denies that condoms prevent aids in Africa. Millions will probably die from that one alone. Evil top to bottom with millions of the gullible willing to defend it. It will take COS quite a long time to equal what the Catholic church has done.
Nope, can’t deny it. It has killed, mangled, and mutilated in God’s name. Converted the heathen whether they wanted it, or not. Brainwashed children in its mythos. It has taken people’s money and built massive buildings with the proceeds while the givers starved in the streets or worked themselves to death and the princes of the church lived in luxury. Sounds like every other major religion.
Virgin birth, the trinity, cannibalism, people rising from the dead, oh, and who can forget the all time favorite of original sin. Yeah, just as screwy as Xenu.
I’ll stick with my original statement, thank you.
Nobody’s persecuting Scientology, although I have questions about what the potential French “ban” on Scientology would mean. The persecution of the Masons makes for an interesting comparison with Scientology, which gets mocked for having some of the same qualities. (Being secretive, charging money, having beliefs that are odd but not objectively more odd than mainstream beliefs.) That’s all. Scientologists sure as hell aren’t being burned at the stake.
I agree without question on that count.
Also, as far as I know, Catholicism does not include a doctrine that exists that is comparable to “Fair Game.” Critics can be sued, lied to or destroyed. Now, folks may have extrapolated that sort of thing from the Catholic doctrine, but I doubt something like that is in there.
Scientology implicitly believes, and teaches its members that ANYONE that says anything bad about scientology is subject to fair game. To give you an idea, for the things that I have written here, it is acceptable for me to be destroyed.
That is not nice. I’m pretty sure it is against the law, a teeny bit.
And for the record, I’m an atheist. So really, I could not care less what flavor of religion someone does or does not have. Doesn’t change my world.
I suppose you could argue that it doesn’t know, but that it used to, centuries ago. It was a new idea at the time and nobody expected it.
Put a little more serious, Scientology certainly did not invent the idea of persecuting nonbelievers and not-the-right-type of believers. It’s wrong and not nice, but it seems to me they just wrote down something many religions had done for a long time. And maybe that’s what it comes down to, with Scientology: they do a lot of the bad things other religions do, but they do them a tiny bit worse, and more openly.
Ever hear of the Inquisition? Apostasy in Islam?
Isn’t one the commandments about taking the lord’s name in vain, or something like that? What’s the penalty for that one?
Never said it did. But all these current religions have skeletons in the closet that are at least at the same level, most worse, of what the Scientologists are currently doing today. And I’m not going to bat for the COS here.
posting from phone because work blocks dope, so please excuse my lack of quoting and my sloppy posting. Auntbeast, just because a person doesn’t agree with your position is no reason to imply that I have “popped in” without reading links and the whole thread. I have done plenty of reading on these topics, long before the wise posters of the dope deigned to bless me with all those links to fight my assumed ignorance.
I know it is a fun game for posters on this board to imply another poster is ‘ignorant’ the second they disagree with them, but it doesn’t really cut me to be called ignorant; I am proud to be a student on these boards; I rarely post in GD, but I have made a conscious decision to not be afraid to start calling it like I see it concerning religion, as I have been personally affected by it. I was taught talking snakes, jealous god, eternal hell fire, and lots of other things that traumatized my child’s mind. Also, as has been pointed out in this thread, other religions are not exactly in a position to judge scientologists for their crimes.
Also, why do people think it holds water to end up their eloquent posts with, “oh, and by the way…you may think I’m a bible thumping Christian but surprise! I am in fact, dear madaam, an ATHEIST!”
It’s like, ok. And I’m not.
More mainstream faiths have a long tradition of imparting guidance and wisdom from people farther along in the spiritual process. These teachers were characteristically uncomfortable with accepting any recompense whatsoever from their teachings. If you look across wisdom traditions from the Desert Fathers to the Starets to the Brahma Rishi, all of them were poor and except where absolutely necessary, accepted nothing from their students and disciples. In no other spiritual tradition that I can think of is the cash transaction such a necessary part of spiritual progress.
Why do you start from the assumption that all beliefs are created equally? Why do you also presume that critics of Scientology do not also relish the chance to challenge and refine their beliefs constantly?
You used this same line of argument in your discussions of Oprah. You assert that any criticism of a belief, person, institution, whatever is somehow personally motivated. Why?
Nzinga, Seated, I did not mean to imply you were ignorant in general, but very few people who read about the actual crimes scientology commits, that is documented by reliable sources, can really say bashing them is just one persons woo woo over another.
I only included the bit about me being an atheist as a point of reference to the fact that my opinion on scientology is not because of any religious influence. Perhaps I consider it shorthand for me saying it is based on evidence, research and a fundamental belief in folks doing the right thing. I don’t have a dog in the religion fight, however, I do have a dog in the scum-sucking vermin-making-this-world-a-bit-worse-for-wear fight. Sure, they aren’t the biggest fish in the pond, not by far, but they happen to be part of something I can play a part in, I can help stop, I can protest. It isn’t a big part of my life, rather a little part of my life, that if I can contribute to the REAL picture of scientology, maybe one less person will succumb.
For all I know, there is some kid out there, trying to figure out the world, stumbles across scientology and they might find this thread. Perhaps someone who is inside finds it and discovers something they didn’t know.
In a quote thread, there was one about a famous baseball player, who played his hardest even when the game was sure to be won because someone out there might not have ever seen me play before.
This is just my way of being at bat and giving it my best.
I don’t get it. Yes, we all know every religion has some skeletons. Does it make it okay for all religions to get their own ? Should we accept and enjoy the fact that COS blackmails, kidnaps, extorts and so forth, because the RCC did the same in the 12th century ?
@**Marley23 **: the French ban is a pipedream from the prosecution. Right now, what they have is 2 ex-Scientos on the stand, testifying against them and their practices, and trying to show that the way these 2 were systematically defrauded is not the exception, but how the Church operates.
Wait, did I say two ? The first got scared by all the pressure and threats, and was paid by the Scientos to shut up (as other victims were before, BTW - it’s not Scientology’s first run-in with our judicial system. They’ve always managed to buy silence. What happened to the whistleblowers after their trial was officially dropped is anyone’s guess). And then there was one…
Going to hell in an afterlife you may or may not believe does not equate to being actively targeted, libeled, and destroyed in this life. And yes, LRH wrote “destroyed.” Big difference.
I have yet to read one poster be able to come up with a single concrete, valuable thing CoS is responsible for (besides entertainment value, which I’ll meet you halfway on). We can all agree that every religion has done seriously fucked up things; you pulled out the Inquisition, apostasy—I can’t argue with that. We can cite back and forth till page 25. It doesn’t erase the plain fact that the CoS contributes nothing to society, has no value, does no charitable works, nothing. We can’t trade cites there because the good works of Scientology simply do not exist.
I believe that all religious beliefs not based in science are equal.
Holy crap, Oprah has torn this boards apart. Please letnus let the Oprah thread go.
The simple rebuttal to this is that it is all about actions, not beliefs.
Most religions act, as far as ordinary folk are concerned, much like social clubs. There is a convenient place to meet, community events, leaders like rabbis and priests and the like. Few ordinary folk are really concerned about the content of their beliefs - whether it be the exact nature of the Trinity or whether Shiva and Vishnu are seperate deities or manifestations of a single god-principle. They are more concerned about baptisms, marriages and bake sales.
If Scientology were a “religion” like that, few people would care about their “woo woo”. The reason they “poo poo” is not merely because of the content of their beliefs, however wacky, but rather because they apparently operate as a sort of scam, and they are vicious about it. They are not your friendly neighbourhood church, temple or synagogue. If they weren’t a scam, people would be a lot more deferential about their beliefs, however strange.
Isn’t that just like saying Somalia and the USA are equally bad, and maybe the US is even worse because, OMG, have you ever heard of Native Americans being slaughtered? Slavery? Mexican-American war? Somalians would have to kill and enslave a lot more people before they even come close to beating the USA’s score. :rolleyes:
This isn’t about Oprah. This is about you. You have essentially argued twice that “haters” are personally motivated for some reason other than by the logic they are actually articulating. I am trying to understand why you make this assertion.