This touches on a point I think is worth mentioning.
Yes, the Inquisition happened. Yes, the Crusades happened. Yes, a whole hell of a lot of atrocities in the name of religion have happened in the past. But they are in the past. We can do nothing about them other than feel regret. The Church of Scientology is doing shit right now. Should we just shrug and go, “Well, other folks have done worse things in the past, I guess we should just let these guys have their turn”?
Scientology is getting a bad rap now because of stuff they’re doing now. If the leader of the COS got on the TV tomorrow and said “Hey, we screwed up, we see what we were doing was wrong, we’re going to make amends,” and proceeded to do just that, almost all of the Scieno-hate would fade instantly.
Same thing’s happening with the Catholic Church. It caught and is catching a lot of shit for its policies on clergy who were caught molesting children. It doesn’t matter if mere molestation pales in comparison to past atrocities, it’s what’s happening now (or recently, anyway, I haven’t seen much news on that particular issue in a while).
I think it is about Oprah. I really do, because boy did that thread bmch panties. To have her holy name conjured in the Scientology thread in GD is cracking me up. But let’s say it a about me; If a person makes a statement that I find hypocritical, I will feel free to call bullshit, regardless of how logically they think they are articulating.
On what grounds do you find criticism hypocritical?
How many times do I have to ask you before you will stop being evasive? What do you actually know about the beliefs of other dopers that you could possibly conclude they are being hypocritical? How does the very act of criticism itself imply some sort of personal motivation? I am a critic of the Church of Scientology. What woo woo do you presume I believe that might make me a hypocrite?
Instead of critiquing the arguments, you impugn the speaker. This is just garden-variety conversational terrorism and bad faith. It’s really crummy.
Wait, let me recall that Straight Dope trick that will help me to not impugn the speaker;
I don’t think that people that believe in Christianity/ Buddhism/Judaism/ Islam are hypocrites. I do believe their statements of “woo woo” on other’s beliefs are them being HYPOCRITICAL.
There are lots of other things one can criticize the CoS about without even touching on Xenu, thetans, auditing, or any of their other mysterious beliefs. I think you will find that most of the thread has been about these other things.
So remind me again, who exactly is being hypocritical here?
Well, there are lots of ‘other things’ that one can criticize about any religion, so let the critic that has no corruption in his own religion be the first to cast the first stone, I always say.
I am pretty grossed out by hypocrisy; in my self as well as in others. But I typically keep that disgust to myself in my day to day life. Now, on a message board that has an OP asking for opinions; I go ahead and make exceptions in those cases.
But, I do wanna say, Maeglin, this lil’ exchange between us sure does seem to have taken on a personal tone. I was simply responding to the OP, which asked why there is so much ire being directed at COS. Although this is GD, there really is no way of answering that question without giving one’s own opinion. I have no clue why you have indicated that I am directing my opinions at posters in this thread, but I was just making a general statement about why I think there is so much ire directed at COS. I have no clue what it is about my tone that I need to adjust for this board, but, uh…I’ll work on it.
Absolutely. If Joe Recruit was told what the ones that had invested hundreds of thousands of dollars get told, he would run away screaming. Incidentally, when folks get to those levels, losing your shit is fairly common, that is when the personal files come out. Lots of psychotic breakdowns once you get to the OT levels.
Actually spent today listening to a long, 123 minute interview with Jason Beghe, a guy I remembered as Demi Moore’s wife is G.I. Jane. He’s intensely critical of the CoS and, though it’s chock full of jargon (and so you need some sort of background knowledge to actually understand a lot of it), it’s very interesting. He bailed on the “church” after hitting OT 5 and has some interesting things to say. It boils down: bunch of evil, evil fuckers.
Sort of just put it on YouTube in the background while I was pushing papers at work and I wouldn’t call it earth shattering, but it’s worth a listen for anyone who’s really interested. Brave guy, coming forward as an actor.
For all the people half-defending the CoS (or at least claiming it’s comparable to other religions), I’m curious what you have to say about a) the fact that CoS actively denies the Xenu story as “ridiculous” whereas defectors have been talking about it for a good thirty years now and b) anything good they’ve ever done.
No condom use in Africa to help prevent aids. That is happening now. Yes, the COS does bad things to people. It may even kill people. The numbers that the COS will affect doesn’t even approach what will happen in Africa because of that one dictate by the Catholic church. Whatever good it does, which could happen with or without it, doesn’t overcome the evil that it has done and continues to do.
So go start a thread about the non-use of condoms in Africa. The subject of this thread is Scientology, and though there may be worse atrocities being perpetrated by other religious groups, it doesn’t negate the necessity of bringing to light atrocities being committed by Scientology.
The thread is about why people are fixated on Scientology. Part of the debate should be on why they shouldn’t be. Or, like I said earlier, the focus on Scientology is akin to the typical dictator in the middle east pointing at Israel/Palestine in the attempt to draw attention away from the bones in his own backyard.
To add. Part of the debate is why they should not also fixate on what the other religions are doing. I don’t think ‘Part of the debate should be on why they shouldn’t be’ is what I really mean here.
No matter what your problem is, you can almost always find worse problems elsewhere, but this in no way negates or even minimizes the original problem. Must we go down the list and fixate only on the religion causing the greatest amount of pain, and who gets to determine which religion that would be?
This is the OP’s question. Part of the answer is to say that what the COS does isn’t any worse than what other’s do, don’t you think?
If someone says that A is bad because it does Y, then a counter is that B does Z, so it is just as bad if not worse. That directly answers the question. It then leads to the last part of the question of why Scientology is called on the carpet (eg. denied religion status, etc) while others carry on their merry way. At least that is how I perceive it.
Another way that I look at it. You have two people. One is known as a person who helps others while the other is a right bastard. Both have been known to ruin peoples lives including killing them. Both continue to do so. Do you let the first guy off just because you like him and he’s popular, or do you stick both in jail?
I get your point Uzi and the analogy is actually really appropriate. I still say Scientology is indeed the right bastard that has done no good and, to me, that makes it demonstratively worse, hence the fixation. You can trade evils for good deeds with all the major, mainstream religions in a way you simply can’t with the CoS.
