History ,as written by Hollywood, never let historical facts get in the way of a good yarn.
The Norman French were the bad guys, not the English.
:dubious:
Just when I thought we’d be able to have a thread about Scotland without Braveheart being mentioned :smack:
“Monomaniac mentality”, eh? Isn’t it normally considered a bit silly to ascribe particular characteristics to all residents of a country?
Well for someone not taking the referendum seriously, you do seem to be getting quite exercised about it.
“Stultifying confines”…“freedom to work hard and prosper”? Your impression of London differs greatly from mine. A ghastly place to live, but I appreciate that others may not agree with me.
So, it now seems that all Scottish people of whom you approve will go to, or remain, in the rest of the U.K. That being the case, why are you so hot and bothered about it?
Should read: "it definitely will become more dangerous for English up here.
I am bothered about the cost and who will pay for it. Quite clearly the plan is for the English to pay for Scotlands independence party. I am also very concerned that this will take up huge amounts of time and resources over many years for little benefit either to Scotland or the rest of the UK.
How much would the Scots be prepared to pay for Independence? £500 a year? £1000 a year? More?
Once a price tag is added to this, I think attitudes will change dramatically.
I have lived here for a decade and never felt threatened once. Nor have my school age children. The worst that has happened to my wife who works with a mixed population of mentally ill people is that one or two have pretended not to understand her RSP speech.
How do you figure that “England” will pay for anything? What exactly do you mean. Currently Scotland as an economic unit contributes slightly more to the national exchequer than it receives, certainly that subsidy to the UK will continue. “England” will also lose the security of most of North Sea Petrochemicals, but that is because the are a Scottish National Asset. What other subject will “England” pay for.
And so the bribery begins.
Scotland given immediate powers to obviate the effects of the bedroom tax. This was one of the SNP’s promises for independence. Running scared?
At least no Scots will be forced into penury or out of their homes by Tory legislation.
Watch for more capitulation as the months go on.
Decommissioning nuclear power plants.
Moving the nuclear warhead store and nuclear sub base at Faslane
The creation of a Scottish army, navy and airforce and a replacement of all the support infrastructure currently located in other parts of the UK.
These things are enormously expensive. Independence is rather more than the trivial rebranding exercise the SNP tends to suggest.
Who is going to pick up the bill?
I think the Scottish electorate will be fully informed of the cost of the SNP vision of an independent Scotland by September and who will pay for it. That ,and some more devolved powers, may well shift the vote towards the Better Together side of the argument.
If rump UK wants Nuclear weapons, it will have to pay for a Rump UK base at some time.
All nuclear power plants in Scotland are going to be decommissioned; this will be a shared expense on a GDP basis.
Scotland will pay for its own self defence force at a level its Government decides.
Quite simple.
The chances of England+Wales+NI invading Scotland militarily are nil.
The chances of England allowing anyone to invade the Island of Britain, no matter how it feels about Scotland, are nil.
Why would Scotland need much of a military?
Exactly.
This is hilarious, you characterise a current government trying to save the Union of two nations as ‘capitulation’ when they offer a few more powers in running their own affairs, and when they do something which against Scotland it is ‘oppression’
As to reiterate, you are not being objective in the slightest, and you are not ‘on the fence’ in regards to independence.
This is all very true. However, I’m sure Russia won’t mind once in a while to try and penetrate and grossly violate Scotland’s borders on a whim due to the what constituted the former British military being vacated from their former bases within Scotland.
Which leads me to another different point, what’s going to happen if Scotland gets Independence and it’s a slim majority? How do you placate all those Scottish Unionists?
Just like they’ve brainwashed Pjen into thinking the British Empire ends at Scotland :rolleyes:
The Russians are coming!
I think Mr Salmond should have a quiet word with Mr Putin about this.
Perhaps he can come back waving some piece of paper that confirms the good intentions of the Russian military towards the Scottish people.
Wait, so now we’re afraid of a Russian invasion? Are you sure you’re done worrying about Napoleon and Hitler?
Scotland would probably be part of NATO - that is the plan- and would receive mutual support as all other countries in NATO do. If not, they would receive support as Ireland does:
"There are notable differences between Irish neutrality and traditional types of neutral states:
While most[citation needed] neutral states maintain strong defence forces, Ireland has a relatively small defence force of approximately 10,500 personnel[3]
While most neutral states do not allow any foreign military within their territory, Ireland has a long history of allowing military aircraft of various nations to refuel at Shannon Airport. Under the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order, 1952,[4] the Minister for Foreign Affairs, exceptionally, could grant permission to foreign military aircraft to overfly or land in the State. Confirmation was required that the aircraft in question be unarmed, carry no arms, ammunition or explosives and that the flights in question would not form part of military exercises or operations.
After the September 11 attacks, these conditions were “waived in respect of aircraft operating in pursuit of the implementation of the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1368”.[5] Irish governments have always said that allowing aircraft to use Irish soil does not constitute participation in any particular conflict and is compatible with a neutral stance, instancing the transit of German troops between Finland and Norway through neutral Swedish territory during World War II.
A neutral state may also allow its citizens to serve in the armed forces of other, possibly belligerent, nations. Ireland does not restrict its citizens from serving in foreign armies and significant numbers of Irish citizens serve or have served in the British and to a lesser extent United States armies."
I repeat that I am on the fence. I have some misgivings about Independence and would prefer maximum devolution under a federal structure where only Foreign Affairs and such were a UK wide concern, but that Scotland had the right to set any laws that it wished save those reserved to Westminster for Federation purposes. Much as US states have the rights to set most laws. That is not going to happen as it would lead to objections from the English electorate who are already carping about Free prescriptions, free higher education, lack of bedroom tax (now) and every other gain that we have made in the past. As a default I have come to accept, reluctantly, Independence as the only option compatible with the whip hand that English legislators have and the attitude of the English electorate.
A result is a result. There is no prize for coming second.
However many of the Unionists are strong devolutionists- there are very few supporters of the status quo!
If the vote is slim though, there is likely to be a ratchet effect if it is slim for Union- I can see the question being revisited after say another ten years of Tory rule without considerable further devolution to placate the Scots. If it is for Independence then I imagine a majority of the Unionists will be accepting of the results as the will of the people. It’s called Democracy.
Yeah, so how will you placate them? Which was my question. What if they don’t accept it?
Yup, completely objective and non Anglo-phobic! :rolleyes:
Russia’s Navy and Air force repeatedly try to violate UK airspace and territorial waters.
How many elections in advanced democratic societies have required an electorate to be “placated” after a decision has been made in a poll?