ISTR some anthropology class where they discussed a “farmer’s mentality” or something like that. In some older societies, people were afraid of letting others know about their wealth because:
their jealous neighbors might give them an evil-eye
people might want to steal from them
There might be other issues such as drawing the attention of the local tax assessor, but the lecturer spent most of his time discussing the fear of having someone put a curse on you. It extended past money to include keeping attractive daughters out of sight and being ambiguous about how many livestock you had. Weird. But it seems to make some sense. Maybe it’s just that heritage. I didn’t know that this isn’t the case in some other countries. I wonder what that’s all about.
My personal experience: I’ve had people become quite upset when they find out how much money I make, and I in turn have gotten pretty upset when I found out other peoples’ salaries. Since so much of life is hard to judge quantitatively, and money is easy to count, people judge their and others’ lives by their wealth because it’s just a simple set of numbers, even though it’s often uncorrelated with how well a person’s life is really going.
Anyway, quit sticking your nose in other peoples’ business.
I guess I take the Corleone approach with finances: never discuss it outside the family. Within the family, I’m very open about it, since we do depend on each other and take care of each other. Outside the family, I try to keep it as private as possible. To me, it’s about class. Not economic class, but ‘quality of character’-type class. Bragging in general is low class, and bragging about money even more so.
The posters who mention getting hit up for loans definitely have a point. A short while back I made a transfer between banks that was way outside the normal transaction sizes that I normally do. Within 24 hours both banks, which had previously been studiously ignoring me for a combined 15-odd years, suddenly decided we were Best Friends Forever and began offering me gifts, special deals and pony rides. I’ve since gotten two more calls from a young lady working at one of the banks just to ask if there’s anything they can do for me because they love me so huggy wuggy much, even giving me a cell phone contact number in case I ever want to whip out my massive throbbing bankroll at 2am for a financial booty call. Now, if two megabanks forced to abide by mountains of legal restrictions are going to start hitting me up for loans the moment they think I have money, what more can expect from random strangers? Most may not care, but it only takes a couple of annoying moochers to be a real pain in the ass.
I am not afraid of you knowing how much I have. I can make good decisions, and I believe you would have to put on a damn fine dog and pony show to trick me into giving you something.
I am not sure how many more times I have to repeat - I was not trying to get money out of my dad. It came up in the course of a conversation unrelated to my money (as I said - I was a teenager and had no money). This is really pissing me off - please read my posts as they are written.
In any case, I’m getting the general picture from the tone of some of these posts that not talking about money is a sure fire way to avoid getting shit from people who feel they must have less than everyone else. :rolleyes:
I feel that’s too bad, since it indicates an insecurity issue on both sides of the coin (pun intended). Talking about big issues, like money, with people you trust can lead to making better decisions.
And maybe, talking about money can also help people deal with being insecure about their “stuff.” Eventually, you’ll get used to the fact that people of all stripes make good and bad decisions about money, and will stop using class issues as a tool to screw with people.
Very interesting thread. I’d often wondered about that. I think the general idea expressed - that this norm protects us from jealousy, negative judgements and manipulative friends and family - makes some sense.
A few years ago I had an accountant in my building do some work on sorting out my finances. This meant that he and his staff found out about pretty much every penny I had at the time. And, being one of those secretive types, I can’t tell you how much is involved, but I can tell you that I have a lot more than I look like I have. Anyway, his secretary, who had been totally cold and uninterested in me prior to this, was absolutely flirtatious with me for about a year afterwards.
As a financial planner this is a fascinating discussion and something I have always wondered about. I would talk openly about these issues if social convention allowed me to do so. I actually think there would be tremendous benefits to lifting the taboo about talking about money, but it is so ingrained that I have little hope of that happening. I am not a commissioned advisor, we get salary and bonus. By talking amongst ourselves about what people in my position make we are all able to better negotiate with management, and everyone benefits.
Every day I work with clients who are trying to figure out how to retire on their resources and there is an amazing amount of variance in lifestyle and level of preparedness. If the more prepared could be more open with their finances, I think there would be a real benefit to disseminating that information. Maybe it is just because this discussion is my life that makes me desensetized to the taboo.
I think you are asking for people to disclose their lack of knowledge on a very important topic. Most people really have no idea of how to make money work for them and it is not something they like to talk about. If you don’t have a firm grip on what money is needed for retirement you can go off the deep end – there was a thread a few months ago by the former VC03 in which he was lamenting that someone who had like $500k had more then enough for retirement. He couldn’t be more wrong.
I would suggest you read a book by **Gail MarksJarvis ** called **“Saving for Retirement (without living like a pauper or winning the lottery)”. ** This was an excellent source for my wife and I to discuss money and our future. I found it a relatively easy read and the author discusses many of the issues you have raised–but she also points out that most people feel like a dunce when it comes to money and thus are afraid to discuss it. They feel everyone else knows about this stuff and they should as well, but they won’t/can’t admit it so they bury their head in the sand. But as she points out most people don’t know this or how to invest or how to plan for their future–we just think other people do.
Our educational system doesn’t teach it (although I think a basic class in money would be a great class), so most people never learn the basic concepts about money. Pay yourself first, and don’t get into debt. I have used this book as a springboard to general discussions with many of my friends, and I think that the author is correct. Most people have at best a rudimentary understanding of how money works and how to plan for your retirement.
I discuss money extensively with my wife, and in general terms with my daughter. With my child it is very general and not the specific amounts we have set aside for retirement. But I have shown her how just investing $1000 a year in a ROTH IRA for 50 years can yield something in the range of $1.8 million–but I also showed her how if she in a whim moment took out $14k ten years into it, she then only has 700k at retirement. First time I ever saw my daughter shocked! My goal before she leaves this house is that she will understand money.
I worked very hard for my level at my job, and I don’t discuss how much I make or my bonuses with my coworkers. I have a good friend from college who I work with and I know he makes about 20% less then I do. If he found out what I made it would depress him and I won’t do that to my friends. But I am also worth 20% more then him, so my wages reflect that. But I doubt he would understand that aspect or see it that way.
I also think letting random people know your income does open you to people ripping you off. They will think you can afford to absorb it and perhaps one could absorb it, but I wouldn’t want my actions to force that!
But if you found out that Bob who sits next to you got a 10% bigger bonus and raise then you—how would that make you feel? My opinion is that nobody benefits. If management doesn’t feel you are at the same level as Bob, you will feel pissed off and be less productive. If you force management into paying you more, then Bob likely will be pissed since he probably feels he is more productive then you and now he is pissed. Pissed off people don’t make for a good working environment in my opinion. But if you have no idea how much Bob makes there is no reason for you to be pissed off and you will work contently at your current salary until you feel underpaid or overworked. YOU have to make the move and decide you need more money.
I would agree with your second paragraph though. I do think there is an amazing variance on what is needed for retirement, and since you are in the field, would you not agree that the average person has an amazing ability to decieve themselves about how much they will need at retirement? I have heard that the average person within 10 years of retirement has something like 80k–is that correct? 80k is nothing to retire on – again would you agree with that?
It’s funny though. We talk about investments a lot at work, but I have no idea if that guy has $300,000 in the market or $30,000 in the market.
But, people don’t talk about a LOT of personal stuff. You don’t talk about family issues. A lot of times you don’t talk about health issues. You don’t talk about money issues.
What do we talk about? We talk about sports, the neighborhood, gardening, politics, movies, television, etc. None of that is personal stuff.
I’m sure that we could hold honest, non-judgmental discussions about the matter, but like others have hinted at. . .it sets the stage for dick-measuring, envy, etc.
Absolutely. Open knowledge about compensation would not enable us to negotiate better with management. If anything, it would divide us and make us even more cutthroat.
The pay bands for every level are fairly well known. So I can guess at least the range that all of my colleagues make.
But our additional compensation, both in the form of equity adjustments and bonuses, are zero sum. If my boss wants to toss more my way, someone else’s additional compensation needs to be reduced. I had a good year. I don’t need anyone thinking that if I weren’t around, they would have gotten another couple grand. This is not exactly good for morale.
How much you have, what you do with it - those aren’t topics of polite conversation. If I’m not sharing my money or my body with you - or expecting you to share yours with me, it really is difficult to see what business it is of yours if I have a million dollar trust fund, make $5 an hour, swallow or don’t swallow. Asking is rude under almost all (but not all) circumstances. Sharing is rude in most circumstances (unless the conversation is one of those ‘share everything’ conversations).
Part of the reason for this is that people judge. Part of the reason for this is people - even if they don’t ‘judge’ - share with others who may judge. Part of this is because if you have little money, people feel pity for you - if you have a lot of money, they start to expect you to share it. And a lot is a very relative thing.
But what about a different reason? Like, My friend is in the same field and is thinking about moving to the city I live in and wants to know if the salaries are comparable…Is this still an insult? A valid reason to ask?
I remember a friend ranting that another friend had asked what she paid in rent for her two bedroom apartment. The friend was moving to her city. My other friend (the ranty one) seemed to think this was an incredibly personal question, even though, as I pointed out, she lived in a community that was renting and had its rates available on the internet. I didn’t see the big deal.
Exactly. We may talk about the market, we may even talk about specific investments or funds, but when you throw actual dollars and cents into it, it suddenly becomes a dick-sizing competition. But if you start telling me how you made $20,000 on Yahoo! ahead of the Microsoft bid, suddenly you open up jealousy (I only made $2,000, or lost money when Yahoo! turned down the bid) or contempt (only $20,000 - jeez, I cleared $250,000 on that deal).
I’m not just that way about money. I don’t like to reveal too much about myself. I erase many, many posts when the answer gives more detail than I am comfortable about revealing (and wish I could go back and delete some others that have more information than I should have revealed). There is so much of my life that falls into others’ “none of your business” category, and I am the sole arbiter as to what of my business is your business.
Where I live, people talk about real estate quite openly. It is very much part of the local culture, and it is not considered particularly rude to discuss how much you pay or ask others how much they pay. Most times, folks are happy to discuss that.
And no, it is still unacceptable for a friend in the same field considering a move to ask how much I make. I would be happy to tell this friend that “with your experience, I think you can probably get an offer of $100k-$120k”.
I would probably answer the question the same way. I currently think I am being hosed by my company and wouldn’t want to let than out. But I don’t think I would be insulted that they asked, or assumed that they were trying to look down on me.
Personally, I don’t care. I know what my brother makes and he knows what I make. Several friends know what I make and I know about what they make… who cares? It’s nothing important.
For the record, I think I made about 54k last year.
Why are people so afraid of others being judgmental? I’d risk that for the tangible gains of learning something worthwhile about money management, a subject on which I know little.
People are going to judge you all the time, based on what you wear, the house you live in, the car you drive, your appearance, etc. ad nauseum. The notion that a guy living in a ritzy house and driving a luxury car has something more to worry about because his friend or acquaintance know his salary or investment portfolio’s worth defies reality.
My goal before she leaves this house is that she will understand money.