You’ve got a good portion of your answer right there. “When” is a completely unanswered question, as our esteemed leaders have no specific goals. They can’t define “victory”, or even “reasonable success” for themselves, can’t articulate anything more than empty pablum about “freedom” to anyone else, and so we move foreward now only on the momentum of the original folly. I assume the whole misbegotten exercise will finally grind to a halt when the American body count racks up to whatever our current conservative pain threshold must be (the results of the midterm elections may shed some light on what this threshold is). The arguments against dishonoring the sacrifice blah, blah, blah will eventually be less disturbing than the realities of attrition and poor recruiting yields, considering a draft is out of the question.
And waiting for a Democrat to pull out and abort the whole mess, and hence being able to blame the resulting problems on said Democrat, and not the Republican who put us into the situation to begin with.
Welcome to the boards, by the way. The bar is on the left, and the sarcasm detectors are on the right. One each, please.
I was speaking of the victims, not the rapists and killers. You expressed surprise that there wasn’t more outrage; I’m saying the American public doesn’t care about them because they were not American.
America collectively put Bush in power twice; it deserves the collective blame.
Jesus, you’re are a scumbag. What about all of us who did not vote for the fucker? What about those of us that did everything we could to keep him from being elected? What about all the compassionate Americans who despise what a small group of powerfull people are doing in our name? You are EXACTLY the same as christian and muslim fundamentalists, you think your shit does not stink, that you have all the answers, you think you are better tha everybody else. You are a pathetic asshole indistinguishable from those you claim to hate. Whiny little do nothing but complain scumbags like you are one of the things that is wrong with this country. You think everything is black and white and you indiscriminately label groups of diverse people based on your own stupidity. Fuck You.
Then why so much outrage over the Abu Ghraib photos? Or is the idea that Haditha and The rape of the 14 year old girl are not seen as “official policy” and the sort of sh*t that just happens during armed conflict.
America collectively put Bush in power the first time thinking “what’s the worst that cold happen”
America put Bush into power the second time based on lies.
I don’t think we are not culpable until we fall for it again this time around (fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me).
I didn’t see that much outrage; mostly it was handwaved away as what they deserved, or no worse than a fraternity hazing.
I think most Americans simply don’t care; I don’t think most would care if it was official policy to rape and kill familes, as long it was over there.
Explaine how you are any different than the rightwinger who says “I think most muslims are terrorists.” You can’t because you’re not.
Ooo, a sarcasm detector! That’s a really useful invention!
–Comic Book Guy
I think that this pretty much sums it up. And as much as it still pains me to say it, I think that the US is responsible to at least provide the same level of efficiency as existed under Hussein. Which we have failed to do.
“Forever”? Oh my goodness gracious no! Only until someone else pulls out, at which point the Bush fils fans will blame it all on that person, thereby absolving themselves of guilt.
And if those who (surprise surprise!) have finally determined that had but listened to anyone besides their personal choir, we wouldn’t be there now. But Bush the lesser had a hardon for Hussein that was shared by an awful lot of people in his administration, which is why the US is once more widely reviled throughout the world. Now it falls to others to attempt to fix the fuckups of the latest Bush administration. Can’t speak for you, but I’m getting too old for this shit.
He’s different in that he’s pointing out a common attitude, not advocating it. If I point out that a lot of people are blonds, that does not make me a blond.
Because they still have America’s oil.
Because. If we leave Iraq, where will we fight the war? The Boogeymen don’t have their own yard to play in so they’ll have to come over to our house. And we don’t like what they do to our lawns.
Nonsense. The “frat hazing” meme was pure Rush, very few, if any, advanced such a revolting excuse, even amongst the Tighty Rightys.
Of course we care. We are governed by fools, doesn’t make us monsters.
They’re celebratory gunshots and fireworks, but the Iraqis have lousy aim. 
And to answer the OP, we’re still in Iraq because we haven’t gotten all the oil out yet. Stalling for time and blaming a subsequent administration is just a bonus.
I disagree. He is not “pointing out” anything he is making shit up out of whole cloth. He is saying Americans are evil. That is no different than saying muslims are terrorists.
I don’t think most americans accept the rape and murder of innocents. For some reason many Americans do swallow the Bush Co. lies hook line and sinker. That does not make them evil just stupid. DT is painting with a brush so broad that it covers the whole world except himself. He is a fucking scumbag asshole. But anybody who has been here more than 10 minutes already knows that. I don’t know why he pissed me off today.
If he’s said “all”, I’d be right there with you. I read it as “some”, which I certainly would agree with.
tdn, did you not see this post?
Bingo!
Unlike most of my fellow liberals here, I believe that there is a small chance of our fixing things eventually, but not with the current people in charge. IFF we get in a new government which can actually demonstrate its differences from the current administration and negotiate with enough other nations in the Middle East to help build and maintain a true, secure environment where ordinary Iraqi people can live at least as well as they did before we went in, then they might actually be able to go on to build a real democracy. It’s by no means certain, but it’s possible. (Personally, I think their best shot is dividing into three distinct nation-states, but then we have the problem of Turkey’s reaction to an independent Kurdistan, so I don’t know if that’s plausible either.)
The only way this can happen, I believe, is if the other, mostly Arab nations provide the troops and we pay mountains of money, because Americans, despite the good intentions of most military personnel, have rendered themselves too despised to be effective, primarily by virtue of our national policies, and to a lesser extent on the basis of the actual actions of thse troops. Not that a few of these actions haven’t been VERY bad; they have. But because people recognize that things get out of control, and the actions of a few are not necessarily policy. It’s the policies themselves that are most resented by the Iraqis now, I think. I’m guessing, of course; I live in New Jersey, and the closest I’ve ever been to Iraq was Madrid - what do I know?
We’ve just screwed the whole thing up so badly, from the fact of the invasion itself through the various clueless political administrators who were guided solely by ideology rather than reality, through to the current situation where there are no plans driven by either ideology OR reality anymore, just a constant game of trying to hold the lid on. Only if a real change in the US government is perceived do we have any hope of fixing it well enough to keep the whole place from going up in flames the minute our troops leave, if not sooner. And if it doesn’t happen with the next presidential election, it’ll be too late; we might as well have left now or two years ago. Again, this is guesswork, based solely on my understanding of the situation as reported by NPR; I have no cites with which I can back my opinions, so please take them for what they’re worth.
Btw, if my ridiculous optimism were to turn out to be justified, this still would not justify the original invasion. I was bitterly against it from the moment I heard W and company propose it, a transparently new crisis just in time for the 2002 midterms. Not that they went to war because of the elections; that just was a major factor in the precise timing for creating the “crisis.” It’s been pretty clearly shown that the intent to invade Iraq was there from day one of this administration; how convenient 9/11 must have been for them in that respect! (and no, I don’t think the current administration was behind 9/11, just that they benefitted mightily)