No, not just here. There were three friends of mine who were pretty hawkish, which was pretty uncharacteristic. They were big on the “logic” of “Why weren’t the protesters protesting Saddam?”
Remember that crap?
All too well. And I’m hard pressed to find a single individual who spewed such noxious crap around with whom to have a conversation today. Either they leave if Iraqle comes up, or they tell me with a straight face, “I never said any such thing.” I’m starting to wonder if some beverage supply was laced, and I happened to avoid it.
All I know is it couldn’t have been vodka. Or tonic water.
This country pretty much broke down into two categories before the invasion:
A. Pro Invasion (either because you believed all the lies and thought Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11, you believed that he was an imminent threat to the U.S., or you were incapable of rational thought).
B. Anti-Invasion (either because you were capable of rational thought or because you were a peace at all costs type).
During this period, Everyone in group A was portrayed as a patriot and everyone in group B was portrayed as a traitor.
After the invasion, this country broke down into groups:
- Pro-invasion/pro-occupation (they knew they were right didn’t understand there were so many traitorous America haters in America)
- Anti-invasion/pro-occupation (it was terrible to invade but we have a moral obligation to try to put the country in as good a condition as it was in before the invasion, this is where I fell)
- Anti-invasion/anti-occupation (it was stupid to go there, it is stupid to stay there)
Recently, many people in group 1 seem to have evaporated and reemerged as people who claim to always have been part of group 2.
What we need to avoid is a situation I have to deal with almost every day:
I have a couple of colleagues who were in group 1 and one colleague that was in group 3. The group 1 guys basically called the group 3 guy a traitor to his face for almost a year. Now the group 1 guys claim they were always group 2 guys and that the time may have come to reconsider our occupation of Iraq. The group 3 guy is still pissed at them and acts like he is owed an apology. He is NEVER going to get an apology from these guys but the group 3 guys just can’t get over the fact that while his colleagues are rationalizing their previous behaviour, they are now all on the same side of the issue. One exacerbating factor is that there is one former group 1 guy that basically did apologize and claimed that he was hoodwinked by this adminstration, so now this group 3 guy basically thinks every former group 1 guy needs to say Mea Culpa.
We cannot have half the country walking around acting like the other half owes tham an apology, it gets us nowhere. We mostly agree that going in was a mistake to begin with and that we have to reexamine our reasons for staying there, we need to move on.
Excellent summary, col, if I may call you that. Welcome to the Dope. It looks like you belong here. If you have any financial problems in signing up for membership, let me or any one of many members know via private email; we like rational new blood, and we’ve all been in tight financial positions at one time or another in our lives.
You’re absolutely right; we can’t afford to go around waiting for apologies or holding grudges. But for a lot of us, it’s very hard to let go. I can’t really speak for anyone else, but I know I just have so much anger! Because it’s not just this one thing, huge and horrible as Iraq (GLWasteful, is Iraqle a short form of Iraq Debacle?) is, there are so many other things that have been done over the past six years. And because, when we warned, we were accused of tin-foil hattery or treachery. And because even now, the reasons most people are beginning to fall either into categories 2 or 3 aren’t the *right * reasons; they’re pissed at the *American * lives and the *American * money lost. I think Der Tris (I’m missing an h in there somewhere, but I’m too lazy to go look) has his head up his rear, but he’s right in believing that Americans value American lives more than foreign lives. Now, to a certain extent, that’s valid; you value your own family more than non-family, and your own countrymen more than non-countrymen. But if something is wrong when it’s done to America or Americans, it’s wrong when it’s done to other countries or their inhabitants. The people we’ve lost are a tiny fraction of the number of Iraqis lost; the cost to us has been nothing compared to the utter destruction of so much of their infra-structure and personal property. Yet these new 2s and 3s, especially the new 3s, don’t seem to care about that. And I’m mad because we’re never, ever going to be able to hold the people who did this to us accountable. Even if the mid-term elections go heavily Democratic, it won’t be enough to see these people even seriously accused, let alone tried, convicted, or punished. And yet Bill Clinton, a man whose greatest sin was really that he co-opted the moderate Republican agenda and got it done better than they had, gets hauled in because he shtupped some eager bimbo, and impeached because he waffled on his testimony!
As I said, it’s hard to let go. I’ll try, but it’s hard.
We’re nowhere regardless. I have always been solidly in group 3, and had made up my mind prior to the invasion that Bush & Co. were lying bastards. ME Politics 101 alone made it painfully obvious the Saddam/al Qaeda connection was horseshit, and the “imminent threat” line likewise horseshit. I even bet a guy (an electrician with facilities I used to be friends with because he knows my brother, and who still thinks it’s cool to taunt me over owning a Prius) $100 that no WMD’s would be found when Blix & Co. resumed inspections. I’ve yet to collect. The reason? They must have been destroyed or spirited away. Only explanation. In his magnaminy, he’s “letting me off the hook” for my end of the bet, saying there’s “no fair way” to determine the winner. I’m grateful he didn’t bring up the recently-discovered rotten mustard bombs, because then I would have had to tell him to fuck off and die, which would have embarassed my brother.
I don’t give a shit about the money, but the attitude both angers and terrifies me. Assholes like this reelected Bush. They don’t owe me an apology, they owe the world an apology. They at least might have the common decency to acknowledge reality and take some personal responsibility for empowering a pack of mendacious, incompentent, warmongering miscreants, but they never will. They appear to have some deep-seated need to deny what’s right before their eyes every day, and still “defend” their asinine position with simplistic patriotic rhetoric and by accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being “unamerican”. Why should I give these people my respect or my support? What on Earth would solidarity with them get me that would be better than their scorn? Why should I be happy to stand side-by-side with all my “fellow Americans” when a goodly portion of them hold views that I think are right to find repugnant and despicable?
OK, OK, I was being cheap. =)
My only excuse is that the idea of paying a membership fee to a messageboard is a bit novel to me.
Welcome, col.
I clearly recall being at my wife’s friends house for dinner, during the pre-invasion buildup. Her husband was strongly in favor of the invasion, and the friend was more like, “SOMETHING must be done, I believe the president knows better than us.” I simply asked the 2 questions, “Why must we invade Iraq” and “Why must we invade now.”
Not a terribly pleasant evening.
But now, if you asked my wife’s friend, she wouldn’t remember ever supporting the invasion.
I remember that she did, because we had a specific discussion of the topic. But memory is an interesting - and fallible - creature. With this invasion having turned out just about as badly as the worst pessimist predicted, I wonder how common it is for people to honestly “misremember” their previous support.
Merely more evidence that supporting the Bush Administration is a mental illness.
We had a thread at SDMB just a day or so before the war began, asking folks to declare if they were for or against it. I went on record as being against it. Lots of other folks here at SDMB posted to it, on both sides.
Sadly, I’ve been unable to find that thread since then. I forget the exact name, but I think it was in IMHO.
Aw, you’re just saying that now!
Found it!
Here you’ll find what dopers said on 3/20/03. I am on record in this thread as saying “no” to the Iraq war.
Sorry, that thread began on 3/16/03. The war began on 3/19/03.
Oh, and here’s a summary by Debaser of that thread, after 200 replies!
Hey, look at that! I’m on record as saying NO on 3/16/03.
Thanks, Qadgop!
If you trying to find a guilty for this adventure I suggest that you look your self in the mirror (like most americans should do)
I wish I went back as far as 3/16/03 to get myself on the record.
In lieu of that, I link my first thread in GD.
Looks like I didn’t check in on that thread.
Hey - maybe I actually supported it then, but just repressed that memory…
Yeah, thanks. It makes for an interesting read.
Interesting to see how many answered yes with apparent absolute glee.
Whoo baby!
Thank heavens for the search function.
Tho I missed the polling thread, I started this thread on 3/17/03:
Why are dems such wimps
including pearls such as:
Glad to see my memory wasn’t that faulty.
Now if only I could remember where I put my car keys…
Lots of guests in that thread QtM cited, but still, it looks like most of the regular paid-up members pegged this one right. And here we are, three and a half years later, still talking about it.