Differ with your fundamental point – the key point to a valid order is that it derives from orders from someone outranking both order-giver and order-receiver. A junior officer currently at the helm may give an order to take a ship “all ahead half speed”, to pick a random example, in the expectation that it will be obeyed by the watchstander in the engine room, even if the watchstander is of higher rank – because both are following doctrine set by the Navy and in accord with orders from the ship’s captain. Examples from Army and Air are rather more ineluctible but no doubt would exist – perhaps the officer in charge of a command center during an overnight watch giving the actual order to close the base/post owing to severe weather, in accord with the base commandant’s instructions if the storm should hit before retiring for the night.
Agreed - authority can be delegated.
That’s actually what’s happening in the case of the guard who denies entry to a senior officer. He’s in effect saying “Though I’m stopping you, I’m not the one who decided you should be stopped - that was done by someone who outranks us both.”
But my point is that there is nearly always a chain of command that must be respected. The Admiral on his flagship knows that he is not to give course or speed commands to the Officer of the Deck, even though seriously outranking him. And indeed no one gets anywhere near the rank of Admiral without a deep respect for chain of command.
I’m not sure I follow the theory.
If Sgt Carter orders Pvt Pyle to guard the gate, then it’s implied that Carter’s order came from higher up… like the POTUS?
Then, if Col Sanders shows up at the gate and Pyle denies Sanders entry, you are saying Sanders can’t order Pyle to let Sanders pass because Pyle’s order essentially comes from the POTUS himself, who outranks Sanders?
But if Carter’s order to Pyle to stop Sanders comes from the POTUS himself, then so does Sanders’ order to supersede Carter’s order???
The point is that Pyle doesn’t know how high up the chain of command his order comes from. If Carter decided on his own that he wanted Pyle to do something, Pyle would get the order from Carter. If the President decided he wanted Pyle to do something (or more likely, decided he wanted a great many privates, which just happened to include Pyle, to do something), Pyle would still get the order from Carter. And if a colonel from outside of Pyle’s chain of command wanted Pyle to do something, he’d send the order through the chain of command, so Pyle would still get the order from Carter. If the President wanted that colonel to enter the base that Pyle was guarding, he would have sent down orders through Pyle’s chain of command (i.e., eventually through Carter) to tell Pyle to let the colonel through (though again, probably not specifically-- The order that Pyle got would probably be something like “let somebody through if their ID shows them to be stationed at this base”, or the like).
Good answer from Chronos (not the first time that has happened).
Pyle expects his orders to come from his chain of command. They usually come through Sgt. Carter, but anyone who Pyle knows to be Carter’s direct superior would be fully acceptable.
Col. Sanders isn’t part of that chain. He should know (and Pyle knows that he should know) not to ask/command Pyle to contravene his orders, but instead to take the matter to Pyle’s superiors.
OK, so let’s take two situations:
-
Assume Col Sanders is outside Pyle’s chain. Sanders wants entry despite Pyle’s refusal based upon Carter’s order. Sanders is not familiar with Pyle’s chain. He doesn’t know how high up Pyle’s chain is the source of Pyle’s order and he’s never heard of Sgt Carter. How does Sanders get access to Pyle’s chain to request an order to pass (through Carter)?
-
Assume Col Sanders is in Pyle’s chain. Does that now mean Sanders can directly override Carter on the spot by Sanders’ directly ordering Pyle to disregard Carter or does Sanders still have to locate Carter and issue an order to pass that goes through Carter to Pyle?
Situation #2 is easier, so I’ll cover that first.
Colonel Sanders can certainly give Private Pyle a direct order. Pyle is obligated to inform Sanders upon receiving a conflicting order that the order conflicts with a prior order he has received, but if the Colonel confirms the order, Pyle is obligated to follow it. At his first opportunity, and if the new orders so allow, Pyle should inform the person who gave him the original order (Sgt Carter) that his (Carter’s) orders have been contravened.
Situation #1 is a little more tricky, especially for Pyle. Ideally, a superior outside the chain of command would not give such an order. The superior should go as high up the chain of command as practicable. If Colonel Sanders (outside the chain of command) gave such an order directly to Pyle, when informed of this by Pyle, Sergeant Carter would complain to his superior (probably a Captain), who would complain to his superior (probably a Colonel), who would have no problem telling Colonel Sanders off.
However, nobody gets to the rank of Colonel without knowing how the system works, so they would be unlikely to give such an order.
If the order were given regardless, and Pyle confirms the identity of Colonel Sanders, he basically still follows the protocol of Situation #2, with perhaps a greater sense of urgency to let the superiors in his chain of command know what happened.
Some other related considerations: as always, Pyle is under no obligation to follow an unlawful order from Colonel Sanders. Also, military police have some other protocols to follow, or it would be impossible for them to arrest Colonel Sanders if he were to commit a crime (like drive drunk or murder his wife).
Caveat: this info is my general understanding–I was a former Naval officer, but I’m not a military lawyer. Also, these types of situations do not generally come up, in my experience, because everybody knows how the system is supposed to work.
Well, everything I know about the age of sail come from Patrick O’Brian (Who wrote the book the movie is based on), but I understand that the books are pretty well researched and accurate, as far as providing a picture of life in the age of sail. As far as the book series is concerned that scene is totally accurate and plausible.
So basically before 1794 midshipmen could very well be carrier sailors in a very similar position to senior NCOs in today’s military. After 1794 they were primarily in training to gain their commission, however they were still considered to be above the common sailor.
If O’Brian’s descriptions are accurate then Officers took an extraordinarily dim view of the average sailor’s intellect, largely because a great many sailor’s were pressed into service involuntarily, and frequently came from the bottom rung of society.
Well, of course they had a dim view of the sailor’s intellect: If they were smart, they wouldn’t have ended up in the Navy! duck and run
That said, I think it is worth noting that at the same time, discipline in the Armies of the world was often very brutal, basically beating them into doing things your way, with the punishment for disobedience or failure to follow rules being what we would today consider extremely brutal (as much as we joke about Wall to Wall Counseling, and even as much as it may or may not informally happen, that’s a whole different kettle of beans to having the entire company watch while you whip the guy for not saluting an officer).
The way I understand it, this kind of discipline isn’t common anymore because your typical footsoldier or man-jack can be expected not to be an illiterate drunk thug (unless he’s a Marine duck and run:D), and thus, is more likely to understand why he shouldn’t break certain rules, or even better, able to understand the reasoning behind the rules, and thus is less likely to need to be threatened with physical assault to be motivated not to break said rules.
I concur with your answer up to this point. But it’s possibly that Pyle’s orders say “Absolutely no one not on this list is to pass your post.” If Col. Sanders (not on the list, and not part of Pyle’s CoC so not authorized to modify the list) tries to pass by issuing an order to Pyle, Pyle’s response would be like what Raguleader posted: "“Sir, may I refer you to the Commander’s Support Staff …” - IOW: “Here’s how to get in touch with the folks who can authorize your entry.”
Things could indeed get tricky if Col. Sanders is trying to deal with some emergency that doesn’t allow him to obtain permission in the normal way. In the real world he could probably resolve this as you suggest: by showing a military ID to confirm that he is in fact a Colonel, and telling Pyle that an emergency requires that previous orders be countermanded and that the Colonel accepts full responsibility for all that ensues.
It is worth mentioning for humor’s sake that when an enlisted guy gives such a response, depending on how the officer acted towards him leading up to that, it might carry the added subtext of “Shove it, Sir.”
Still the correct response, and if the enlisted guy is well trained and disciplined, it will be given in the proper tone, but yeah, it’ll still have that subtext. 
Indeed. Probably both of them know that this is deserved.
And if Col. Sanders indeed browbeats Pyle into letting him in to an area where he’s not authorized, two things are likely:
- Pyle will be in trouble for failing to carry out his orders.
- Col Sanders will be in BIG trouble for engineering a serious breach of discipline.