Why aren't Military Ranks all the same?

[Darth_Nader]

never mind.

[Raguleader]

@Monty

AIUI, the Midshipmen and Cadets who are actually ranked between Chief Warrant Officers and other Commissioned Officers are those at the federal Service Academies. Those in ROTC programs at other universities are considered to do so when they are deployed for training with line units.

Fun fact: ROTC cadets sign enlistment papers as part of their deal with Uncle Sam if they are getting their college paid for up front. If they don’t stay in the ROTC program (or indeed, if they don’t stay in college), Uncle Sam gets his money back by sending them to Basic and putting them to work in the enlisted ranks. One of my co-workers at my last squadron was in this situation. A very sharp airman, don’t get me wrong, she just didn’t want to go into a career in Engineering, so she broke her contract, changed majors, and graduated with her new major. She then went to Basic Training, and the Air Force slotted her into her new enlisted job… in a Civil Engineering squadron. Uncle Sam loves irony.

[Monty]

Thanks, Raguleader. I forgot about the students getting their ROTC scholarships footed by the feds.

[Chefguy]

[quote=“Snnipe_70E, post:153, topic:551549”]

@Raguleader

The term Midshipman comes from sailing ships. The officers quarters were aft, that is behind the Main Mast. The crew lived forward of the main mast in the folcole (sp?). A ship may have one or two crewmembers who were in training to become officers. They slept forward with the crew ate aft with the officers. their lifes were going between the two places therefore midship.

A Midshipman outranks an warrent officer but is junior to a Ensign. But they are limited in the orders they are allowed to give. They are not normally in the chain of command. When deployed they are oftem placed under the supervision of Chiefs with orders to follow their instructions. Like in the days of sail they live in never never land not really an officer and not really not an officer.

I have to take issue with this, unless you can provide a cite for your information. A Midshipman doesn’t outrank anybody except perhaps another Midshipman, and certainly not a Chief Warrant Officer. There is no rank chart that I’ve ever seen that includes Midshipmen in the ranking order.

[robby]

@Chefguy

I have to take issue with this, unless you can provide a cite for your information. A Midshipman doesn’t outrank anybody except perhaps another Midshipman, and certainly not a Chief Warrant Officer. There is no rank chart that I’ve ever seen that includes Midshipmen in the ranking order.

The only reference I can find offhand online is this old NAVEDTRA reference cited in wikipedia. (Warning: PDF)

Naval Academy midshipmen are classified as officers of the line but are officers only in a qualified sense. They rank just below chief warrant officers.

(I’ve seen other references that add NROTC midshipmen on active duty for training to “Naval Academy midshipmen.”)

Anyway, this reference puts midshipmen below chief warrant officers, but presumably senior to enlisted. Bizarre for a midshipman to formally outrank a Master Chief, but not much more strange than a brand new ensign. Any midshipman who tried to push the issue is even more of a fool than the ensign, though. As least the ensign is actually a commissioned officer.

I’ve seen this “officers only in a qualified sense” many times. Most times it’s translated as “not actually an officer.”

As a midshipman, the only time I was actually saluted by anyone was by a sailor unfamiliar with the insignia, and confused by the khaki uniform.

You’re absolutely correct about rank charts, BTW. I’ve never seen midshipmen formally listed in any rank chart.

[Chefguy]

@robby

@Chefguy

I have to take issue with this, unless you can provide a cite for your information. A Midshipman doesn’t outrank anybody except perhaps another Midshipman, and certainly not a Chief Warrant Officer. There is no rank chart that I’ve ever seen that includes Midshipmen in the ranking order.

The only reference I can find offhand online is this old NAVEDTRA reference cited in wikipedia. (Warning: PDF)

Naval Academy midshipmen are classified as officers of the line but are officers only in a qualified sense. They rank just below chief warrant officers.

(I’ve seen other references that add NROTC midshipmen on active duty for training to “Naval Academy midshipmen.”)

Anyway, this reference puts midshipmen below chief warrant officers, but presumably senior to enlisted. Bizarre for a midshipman to formally outrank a Master Chief, but not much more strange than a brand new ensign. Any midshipman who tried to push the issue is even more of a fool than the ensign, though. As least the ensign is actually a commissioned officer.

I’ve seen this “officers only in a qualified sense” many times. Most times it’s translated as “not actually an officer.”

As a midshipman, the only time I was actually saluted by anyone was by a sailor unfamiliar with the insignia, and confused by the khaki uniform.

You’re absolutely correct about rank charts, BTW. I’ve never seen midshipmen formally listed in any rank chart.

I was in the NESEP for a few years, but never was commissioned. I wore the uniform home on leave once to get the reduced airfare. The collar devices were gold anchors and the cap had a gold braid, but I was paid per my enlisted rank. I was in the airport in Seattle and was openly mocked by a couple of Army E-4s, who I actually outranked as an E-5. I just laughed along with them, as it would have been pointless to attempt to throw around my non-existant officer status.

[Snnipe_70E]

[quote=“Chefguy, post:164, topic:551549”]

@Snnipe_70E

I have to take issue with this, unless you can provide a cite for your information. A Midshipman doesn’t outrank anybody except perhaps another Midshipman, and certainly not a Chief Warrant Officer. There is no rank chart that I’ve ever seen that includes Midshipmen in the ranking order.

Sorry no site I can not go back to my academy days. That was where we were told where we ranked by the Naval Officers and Chiefs at the Maritime Academy. And when we were leave in a Navy town and in uniform I had to return many a salute.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

The midshipmen aboard HMS Surprise in the movie Master and Commander clearly exercise authority over the much-more-senior sailors with whom they serve. One, who couldn’t have been more than nine years old or so, actually commands a boarding party, IIRC. Accurate for Nelson’s Navy, or was that just Hollywood?

[Raguleader]

@robby

Any midshipman who tried to push the issue is even more of a fool than the ensign, though. As least the ensign is actually a commissioned officer.

I have heard a few stories of uppity 2LTs in the Air Force trying to throw rank around at a Master Sergeant. Protip: Don’t fuck with the old Senior NCOs. They’re crochety, and know more about what’s going on anyways. If a Lieutenant gives one an order, they’ll follow it 99% of the time, but then 99% of the time, the LT is probably being respectful to the NCOs anyways (as a matter of fact, I’ve never had an officer in any service I’ve dealt with be disrespectful towards me, even when telling me I’m an idiot. But I’ve been told I have a face that kinda inspires superiors to be gentle when dealing with me. Whatever the hell that means.)

Speaking of 2LTs, I read somewhere (probably Wikipedia) that one of the missions of the Chief Master Sergeants (E-9s, highest ranking Senior NCOs in the Air Force) is to help guide the Lieutenants. Probably like an Obi-Wan Kenobi thing. That’s original trilogy Obi-Wan, not the Prequel guy. These dudes are old. And at least a few of them are PT hosses. I considered it an outstanding day when I could manage to keep up with my squadron’s Chief, let alone stay ahead of him, during our 3 mile runs at PT. And I’m in my mid-20’s:eek:

There’s a joke about NCOs: A sergeant in motion outranks an officer at rest (the corollary is that an EOD Tech at a dead sprint outranks everybody else, who should probably follow his example.)

[Tripler]

@Raguleader

Speaking of 2LTs, I read somewhere (probably Wikipedia) that one of the missions of the Chief Master Sergeants (E-9s, highest ranking Senior NCOs in the Air Force) is to help guide the Lieutenants.

Wasn’t that the little brown “Enlisted Guide” (can’t remember the pub name right now)? I remember seeing it somewhere too. . .

There’s a joke about NCOs: A sergeant in motion outranks an officer at rest (the corollary is that an EOD Tech at a dead sprint outranks everybody else, who should probably follow his example.)

Both points are very true.

Tripler
Caveat: There are good Chiefs, and there are E-9s. Gotta find the right one.

[Chronos]

There’s a joke about NCOs: A sergeant in motion outranks an officer at rest (the corollary is that an EOD Tech at a dead sprint outranks everybody else, who should probably follow his example.)

Indeed.

[Raguleader]

@Chronos

There’s a joke about NCOs: A sergeant in motion outranks an officer at rest (the corollary is that an EOD Tech at a dead sprint outranks everybody else, who should probably follow his example.)

Indeed.

I see you read the same military training guides that I do

“There is no overkill. There is “Open Fire” and “I need to reload””

[dmatsch]

@Bear_Nenno

@Bearflag70

Couldn’t the lieutenant just supersede Carter’s order and make Pyle let him in?

No. Not if the order was part of Pyle’s Special Orders for his Guard Duty. If you are ordered to guard something and you are told to only let certain individuals though, then nobody else can “supersede” those orders regardless of their rank.

In USAF basic training, this very thing happened. When you were on late night guard duty you constantly had all kinds of military personnel try and trip you up and gain access to the barracks. One guy showed his Disney season pass, another guy was the TI (Training Instructor - drill instructor) of another unit (no access) …

…and once, the commander of the unit showed up in plain clothes with no ID. No ID, No Entrance, No Exceptions. His orders. He didn’t get in, but he certainly screamed “do you know who I am?” and “I order you to open this door”.

[Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus]

@acsenray

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

In later incarnations you do see noncoms here and there, but in TNG the head of the entire engineering department is only a Chief. I know, IRL, USN chiefs do some majorly important technical work, and may be personally responsible for critical components, not to mention directing a lot of sailors under them. But in no way would a MCPO be the head of engineering on a large ship–or would he? In any event, I assume the writers must have thought that “Chief” must be a very high commissioned rank, perhaps up there with Captain and Commodore. Although, from what I’ve read about Navy life, a new Ensign will probably be in more awe of a seasoned Chief, than the other way around.

LaForge was a lieutenant when he became chief engineer. Later he was promoted to lieutenant commander. I believe his immediate predecessors had also been lieutenant commanders.

It’s possible that he might have been addressed as “chief” on the show, but that might have been meant as a contraction of “chief engineer” rather than “chief petty officer.”

My mistake, I meant Chief (Operations Officer) O’Brien from DS9. I thought he was the Engineering head, but I seem to have misremembered. The Wikipedia character biography definitely says he’s an officer, so granted he’s not a CPO. “Chief” in this case is his assignment, not his rank, but IRL would such a naval officer ever be called Chief So-and-so?

[Xema]

@dmatsch

He didn’t get in, but he certainly screamed “do you know who I am?” and “I order you to open this door”.

To which the correct response is “Sorry sir, but I have my orders.” Which translates as “It’s no use asking/demanding me to do what I was lawfully ordered not to do - take this up via the proper chain of command.”

[Polycarp]

@Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus

@acsenray

LaForge was a lieutenant when he became chief engineer. Later he was promoted to lieutenant commander. I believe his immediate predecessors had also been lieutenant commanders.

It’s possible that he might have been addressed as “chief” on the show, but that might have been meant as a contraction of “chief engineer” rather than “chief petty officer.”

My mistake, I meant Chief (Operations Officer) O’Brien from DS9. I thought he was the Engineering head, but I seem to have misremembered. The Wikipedia character biography definitely says he’s an officer, so granted he’s not a CPO. “Chief” in this case is his assignment, not his rank, but IRL would such a naval officer ever be called Chief So-and-so?

While Star Trek is hardly an accurate depiction of any real-world military ranking system, in TOS, Scotty’s duty position was “Chief Engineer”; his rank was Lt. Commander (promoted to Commander in the later movies). That may explain the “Chief” issue.

[Raguleader]

@Xema

@dmatsch

He didn’t get in, but he certainly screamed “do you know who I am?” and “I order you to open this door”.

To which the correct response is “Sorry sir, but I have my orders.” Which translates as “It’s no use asking/demanding me to do what I was lawfully ordered not to do - take this up via the proper chain of command.”

Actually, no. The (very specific, from a script posted on the wall next to the door which we were required to reference for everything we said, rather than memorizing any of it) was “Sir, may I refer you to the Commander’s Support Staff or the Charge of Quarters?” If your own instructor happened to be in at the time, he’d usually come to help you after a minute or so once he saw you weren’t going to screw up (or he’d be there a lot quicker, if he was expecting someone and wanted to talk with them).

[Xema]

@Raguleader

“Sir, may I refer you to the Commander’s Support Staff or the Charge of Quarters?”

Which has the same meaning as my paraphrase above: take it up with the chain of command from which my orders came.

A fundamental point is that outranking someone is a necessary but not sufficient condition for issuing him orders.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Elendil_s_Heir

The midshipmen aboard HMS Surprise in the movie Master and Commander clearly exercise authority over the much-more-senior sailors with whom they serve. One, who couldn’t have been more than nine years old or so, actually commands a boarding party, IIRC. Accurate for Nelson’s Navy, or was that just Hollywood?

Any thoughts?

[Raguleader]

@Xema

@Raguleader

“Sir, may I refer you to the Commander’s Support Staff or the Charge of Quarters?”

Which has the same meaning as my paraphrase above: take it up with the chain of command from which my orders came.

A fundamental point is that outranking someone is a necessary but not sufficient condition for issuing him orders.

Oh, it has the same meaning, but they don’t like paraphrased answers in Basic. They were pretty retentive about you giving exactly the correct responses to certain things, which is why the Entry Control script is posted on the wall (we were required to point at each line and read it, to show that we hadn’t memorized it and thus risk mis-remembering the procedure).