All crimes on earth have a finite sentence. If one doesn’t commit a sentence that requires life imprisonment without parole, then that person will eventually be set free no matter what he says or believes.
Of course, if that prison is allowed to torture its inhabitants until they sincerely repent, then I expect there will be a shitload of sincere repenting going on, although this sincerity will be a child of torture. Yeah, even Hitler could be made to sincerely belief that what he did was horrendous if enough torture is applied for a period of time. With enough torture a person will sincerely believe anything.
Well, I’m not certain it would necessarily result in apathetic followers. The christians I’ve known never seemed like they were christians because of fear of punishments; they were christians because they believed in the christian god and wanted to act on that belief and devotion. That’s not something that’s going to chance if they decide that the god in question (against all expection) isn’t an evil asshole. Also many of them claimed to actually enjoy going to church - liking the community and the feelings they get when they sing and pray in groups and somesuch. It never did anything for me, but I have no reason to believe they’re actually lying. And it’s worth nothing that there are atheists who go to church (often Unitarian Universalist churches) specifically because they like the community. (The weirdos.)
So actually, while I think the ‘they’re golfing’ argument has potential merit, I think the actual reason universalism isn’t universal is because it’s pretty easy to find examples in the bible that suggest that God is in fact not infinitely forgiving. For example, every single story. The expulsion from Eden. The Flood. The plagues of Egypt. Sodom and Gomorrah…
Well, I think it boils down to the actual structure of the place. If the choice is mindless euphoria singing praises at the feet of an evil god in a beautiful place, or getting ass raped by a hot poker for eternity in a stinking hell hole, I think your morality would evaporate pretty damn quick.
Would you say that such a choice would be made because of “free will”?
I believe that I’ve spent most of the thread explicitly conceding that given mindless euphoria my will and identity would be wiped away - hot poker or not.
Once my will and identity have been wiped away, my current moral concerns will matter not one whit.
No, but I’m not inclined to believe in free will. If I believed in God, I still wouldn’t believe it, because an omnicient god would know, by definition of omniscience, every single thing you’re going to do. And if he knows, that means your path is set in stone.
Well, when I was a Christian, I was a Christian because I believed everything that was taught me with all my heart and soul. I also liked the social aspect. I still miss the social aspect, and I still view those people as more like me than a stereotypical atheist that might attend a Unitarian church. (I happen to know one and really don’t like him). It was when my beliefs started getting chipped away that I gradually, over a period of several years, decided it was not for me. Right now, I think that if there is a god, and he’s good, I’ll probably end up in a good place. If he’s evil, then I guess I’m fucked, but that’s a chance I’m willing to take. So I guess you could say I’m kind of like an agnostic universalist, a definite “golf player.”
Well, you shouldn’t hold him against the rest of us atheists. You should get to know me personally, and then decide you really don’t like me! 
(Not that I attend a Unitarian Church - I went once and felt creeped out by all the religion and community and people-being-there and stuff. But still.)
Not really. I think the fire & brimstone crowd do a terrible injustice to Christianity, and so sharing the “gospel of inclusion” is a worthwhile endeavor. I mean, I could sit on my couch and not do anything and still not go to hell, but I wouldn’t feel very good about myself.
Well, that’s what I’m looking for - a debate about what the scriptures say and don’t say.
There is a passage in Revelation where Satan is thrown into a lake of fire. Whether that passage is intended literally or as apocalyptic imagery is debatable, and I don’t think it mentions human beings but Satan and his demon. I’m going by memory, since admittedly I don’t spend a lot of time in the book of Revelation.
Correction, they don’t believe in eternal punishment at all.
I’m skeptical. I run into plenty of (quietly) universalists in church. And I think if this was really the dominant theology of the church, church would be more, not less, attractive. A church that loves and accepts everyone without condemnation! Hurrah!
I think the real reason people don’t like Universalism is because they don’t like the idea of people not getting punished for wrongdoing. They like mercy and forgiveness for themselves, but not others. Being on the inside is good only if there are people suffering on the outside. My cake only tastes good if you have no cake. Which, needless to say, is the very opposite of what Jesus taught.
Well, that ‘not feeling good about yourself’ part is why you get a hobby! Doing nothing is boring and unfulfilling. Golfing has been mentioned, I believe. (It’s too active and physical for me, though.)
Scriptures about the lake of fire
Let’s see, at a glance I’m seeing mention of judgement. What need a universalist god for judgement? Matthew 25:46 also doesn’t look terribly universalist to me. Honestly none of those verses look too good.
I’m thinking it’s possible to argue for a fire-and-brimstone god from a scriptural basis, just on the basis of these scriptures alone.
Perhaps so. In that case, fine.
Well, Life without parole is indeed- effectively infinite. True, once they die they drag your lifeless body out. But since “until i die” is the same as far as mortal life goes as “forever” then your point has been poorly made.
Again, most Universalists dont think there will be torture as you think of it. Gray, boring, and the sure and certain knowledge that it is your fault. Hardly hot pokers up the wazoo.
And perhaps, yes, Hitler might just sincerely repent. Maybe.
But the fire-and-brimstone stuff isn’t the only reason why lots of people don’t go to church. Personally, I’m not feeling real hungry for love and acceptance. So there is no motivation for me to acquire it by getting up early in the morning and strolling into a building full of people I don’t know, who will probably work my nerves if I hang out long enough. Even when I believed in God I didn’t feel this motivation. Not everyone wants or needs love and acceptance that badly.
I don’t think most church-going Christians go to church because fire and brimstone are constantly weighing on their minds. I think they go because church affirms their faith and keeps it strong. Losing just a little bit of faith is scary because once you start having doubt it’s very hard to silence it. It snowballs. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I found it easier to acknowledge my lack of faith once I stopped going to church.
You see such diligence among all kinds of devotees. Gym rats aren’t necessarily afraid of turning into fat blobs if they skip a day. They are afraid that skipping a day will make it that much easier to skip more days, which might then make it easier to eat like crap and then not perform all that well. And when that happens, they will no longer be a “true” gym rat. Just a wannabe poseur.
Church-going Christians go to church so that no one can ever take away their “true believer” status. But the non-church going Christians aren’t all that worried about that happening to them. They simply value eating pancakes over “Meet the Press” more than they value singing hymns and listening to sermons. Maybe they have plenty of friends and family to shower them in love and acceptance.
There are many earthquakes which do not generate tidal waves. Is our free will diminished by those? Would our free will be diminished in a world with no earthquakes at all? Or tiny earthquakes? Like Ohio?
People being allowed to murder due to free will is iffy enough (do sociopaths have true free will?) but the free will explanation for natural evil doesn’t cut it at all.
As for the second part, name one part of the world in which people are not at risk due to some natural disaster or another. Since God did not grant us omniscience, those killed by the tsunami in Japan didn’t know that if they moved 20 miles north or south they’d be safe.
Free will assumes a choice is possible. Most people don’t have a choice. Especially poor ones whose ancestors have lived in these villages without getting flooded for hundreds if not thousands of years.
Remember, before Christianity pretty much everyone was Universalist in the sense that all people got treated the same. I think the Egyptians got graded due to various aspects of their life, not whether they begged for salvation from one of the gods.
They all filled the temples.
And if that didn’t work, bring back Vestal Virgins.
Again, you misunderstand Free Will. Free Will has nothing to do with where you live or really- how you die. It is that you have a Choice on whether to Choose God/Jesus or not.
Yes, people die. Not because of Free Will. Because other humans made bad choices or due to simple natural causes. Not because of God.
The only thing which connects Free Will to Natural disasters or bad things or suffering is that if God did hundreds of miracles daily to prevent these things, you would not effectively have free will.
Yes, because scientists know that earthquakes should occur. They are a natural part of plate movement, etc. If something miraculous was stopping them from happening, they would announce it.
If I believed in a being called Satan\Lucifer \Beelzebub, I 'd wonder if he \she could decide to repent. Since I see this as a metaphor for the potential for evil that exists in all of us, I guess the point is moot.
You may not have thought this out very well. You’re essentially saying that a person’s milieu has to be a certain way for them for them to believe a certain way. This is very opposite of free will. If people have free will, they can choose to believe whatever they want to believe. If a person sees God stop a hurricane in its tracks, free will makes it so that he can choose to rationalize it away any way he wants.
At any rate, belief in God isn’t enough for Christians. Supposedly, love for God is what separates a Christian from a poseur. Just seeing God stop a hurricane is not enough to evoke love. It may actually cause more anger and resentment. “If God can stop hurricanes, why did hasn’t he made me rich yet? GOD SUCKS!!!”