If, by Messianic Jews, you mean a group of Jews who observe halacha, but simply believe that the human being Jesus was the long-awaited messiah, then you are dealing with a group of people who are mistaken; in that they believe (apart from every other Jewish community) that the messiah has come. (This, of course, puts aside the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the role of a messiah.)
If, on the other hand, you are talking about a group of Jews who observe halacha but believe in a divine Jesus being the son of God, then you are dealing with a group of people who are completely out of the norm of Jewish thought and religion (in that in Judaism, the idea of a literal Son of God is completely foreign) and can, in no way, be said to be practicing Judaism.
Zev, I believe that most Messianic Jews do believe in the trinity in some form (but only as manifestations of a single God).
Also they do not use the word Christ, only Messiah and refer to Jesus in the Hebrew form of Yeshua. As they don’t use the word Christ they do not actually refer to themselves as Christians, only believers.
Obviously whether they are a sub-set of Christianity or Judaism is debatable as though most Christians would accept them as Christians, I doubt that most observant Jews would accept them as practing Judaism.
If so, then they are completely out of the ballpark, as far as Judaism goes. One of the fundamental tenets of Judaism is that God is one and is not divisible in any manner (as in a Trinity).
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That’s just a matter of semantics then. “Christ” simply means “anointed,” a common usage for the messiah.
I don’t know about your former point, but as for your latter point, I can tell you all Jews (Orthodox, Conservative and Reform) would not accept them as practicing Jews.
Well Zev made all the points that I was going to make, but I’ll just add that the worship of any human being, in and of itself, is idolotrous in Judaism. I would also throw in the reminder that the messiah is not God in Judaism.
“Messiah” comes from the Hebrew “moshiah,” meaning “annointed.” It’s just a choice of using a Hebrew or a Greek term. (Heck, they could use my term, Reb Yesu ben Yoseph, and they still haven’t changed their beliefs away from Christian.)
To expand on Zev’s definitions, there is a third group of Messianic Jews – Jews for Judaism. One of their people did a presentation at the Hillel house back when I was in college. The only point I remember about them is that they seek to counter the missionary practices of the more common “Messianic Jew” organizations. Otherwise, I don’t recall what makes this group Jewish.
Back to the OP: A person cannot be of two faiths at once in Western culture. That’s part of the definitions of the Western religions.
Jews for Judaism is a straightforward Orthodox Jewish counter-missionary group. They are messianic in the same sense that all Orthodox Jews are messianic (i.e. that we are waiting for the messiah to come). They are most definitely not messianic in the sense of Jesus = messiah.
Actually that is changing. I have heard more than one person claim that they are a member of all religions. The claim is that they take the best from all the religions. Another claim is that all religions are essentially the same. (I disagree with that view.) From my perspective, this trend can be expected and will probably continue to increase as we get closer and closer to some type of one-world religion.
I think, in the end, what it all boils down to is that the Jewish Messiah is, er, basically a King and a Warrior who will do certain things.
Jesus Bar Joseph did some of these things, did not do some of these things, and definately does not match the prophecy.
Simply believing that Jesus was the jewish messiah is interesting.
However, believing in his teachings places you outside the jewish religion. I am not sure it is possible to believe he was messiah without believing in his teachings.
It depends which teachings. It’s certainly hard to argue with “Love your neighbor…” A while back, Libertarianasked for non-Christian perspectives on the Sermon on the Mount. I posted there my feelings on the “Jewishness” of the content of the Sermon.
I would say that you can believe in the teachings of Jesus without believing he was the messiah. Much of what we think of as “Christian” teaching comes from Paul or other early Christians. It is debatable whether Jesus, himself, ever claimed to be the messiah, and even more so whether he claimed to be divine. Personally, I think Jesus would have been mortified at the thought of his own deification.
In Mark 2, Jesus claims He has the authority to forgive man’s earthly sins. In Mark 4, He commands the wind to stand still, and it obeys Him. He heals several people, casts out demons into swine, and raises a young girl from the dead.
I take some exception to the idea that, to discuss this topic, one must be on the company of imbeciles. This has been the topic of discussion of several lectures and study groups that I have attended over the last couple of years.
Christianity and Judaism are not mutually exclusive, at least not from the point of view of the Messianic Jew. Or is this not a valid position.
None of them ever claimed to be the Son of Man, though, and none of them ever demurred only “Do not tell anyone,” if crowds said they were the Son of God.
It’s the miracles plus the self-id that makes me confident Jesus wasn’t about to disclaim divinity.
I fail to see how one can logically maintain a position within normative Judaism that we are awaiting the messiah (as codified by Maimonides in his Articles of Faith) and yet maintain that the messiah has arrived.
I fail to see how one can logically observe Yom Kippur as the day of atonement for one’s sins, a day which involves asking God to forgive the sins you’ve committed in the previous year; and at the same time, go to church and celebrate Easter, a festival commemorating the ressurection of the son of God who died to absolve you of your sins.
I fail to see how one can logically observe the solemn day of Tisha B’Av a day when we mourn the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, which caused us to become unable to bring the sacrifices as detailed in the Bible, and yet, observe Christmas which celebrates the birth of one who was supposed to make the Temple service obsolete before the Temple was even destroyed.
I fail to see how one can logically observe the commandments, such as shabbos, kashrus, tefillin and mezzuzah and yet turn around and say that it’s not necessary because Jesus fulfilled the law.
I didn’t say believing in his message, Zev, I meant all of his teachings, as codified in the New Testiment. The “I am he who am” part, and the bit where he says he fufilled the law, and so on and so on.
He was a great and good man, and an excellent teacher. (Provided he existed. If he did not, then the words as written describe a great and good man and excellent teacher.) We could do much worse than listening to what he said, his sermons and his parables, and following their inner meaning.
But once you get into him dying for your sins, riiiiiight off the path of Judiasm. In short, the part that seperates Jesus from any other random great teacher, such as Rabbi Hillel. (Hilliel?)