“Reinforce antipathy toward the public”? Oh come ON. Pointing out that the lower income strata had double-digit wage growth under Biden, higher real wage growth than any other group, is “reinforcing antipathy toward the public?”
This reveals what the narrative is about. It’s nothing to do with people’s actual circumstances, it’s nothing to do with data-driven analysis. It’s about imagining you know best what “The Public” thinks, and insisting we all bow down to your interpretation, even if it’s one anecdote of a nameless and faceless person. This is the exact reason we spent 4 years interviewing customers in small-town diners to ask them about how their “economic anxiety” led them to vote Trump, when we all know the real reason is that they’re fretting about losing their place in the racial pecking order.
The lower-income strata grew most under Biden and you can’t wave it away with bullshit posturing about how others aren’t sensitive enough to their plight. If you want more double-digit wage growth and reduction of inequality for the poorest Americans, then stop undermining the guy who made it happen. Take the win and double it.
And of course I’m not talking about “the public” here, I’m talking about people who claim to speak on their behalf, and this is just more of “why are you being a meanie to Joe the Plumber who is trying to plumb so hard.”
I care about actual people who have measurable behaviors, not fluffed-up man–in-the-street anecdotes that somehow always seem to flatter the priors of the person doing the telling. If you want to count things, numbers are (so far) the best system humanity has invented for that task.
Is it only an ad hominem when you’re deluding yourself? Because this whole thread is based on the idea that anyone who isn’t in grateful awe of the economy has been tricked into thinking that way and it’s just impossible that anyone could look at their own finances and shopping and bills and come to any other conclusion. Would you feel better if I talked about a misinformation cabal that’s the only possible explanation for why you feel the way you do?
People don’t really care, much less research into, where oil production is happening. They claim that they care but it’s only a function of energy prices. When gas is $4/gal then people might listen to someone else say that it would be cheaper if we drilled directly into the caribou but that’s only effective because they tangibly notice that gas prices are hurting their finances. If gas was 10¢ a gallon, it could be coming from the Al’Qaeda baby mines for all most people care.
That’s exactly what it is. You’re not giving people jobs or money – you’re just pointing at charts to insist that they need to appreciate it and being ignorant of the reasons why they’re not. Just above is an article about spending. Multiple times in this thread people have pulled out “But spending is up so the economy is great! Why doesn’t everyone praise Biden?” and then we get an article that actually gives multiple things about the spending economy that leave out or hurt people under $250k/yr and no one addresses that. It’s “But spending is up” and anything else is just “micro-anecdotes” or some other bullshit handwave. After all, it can only be because of FOX News that anyone thinks otherwise: There’s a chart that says spending is up!
In post 264 I pointed out that the lowest-income earners had their real wages increase by 12.1% and it’s utterly ignored.
If you want to know why people aren’t moved by how the Biden economy has reduced wage inequality, ask yourself why you sped past this fact to cherry-pick the Vox article.
There will always be cherries of inequality and underperformance to pick. There will always be an anecdote of someone being left behind. While we should never stop trying to address those things, we have to focus on aggregate data, because there’s simply no other way to judge decisions that are necessarily made in the aggregate.
This is just goalpost-moving. I can share more charts, and the goalposts will move elsewhere, because at the end of the day, this isn’t about data, but about preserving the supremacy of personal vibes as economic analysis.
You pointed it out as a backpedal from your “Spending is up!” article that basically said the opposite of what you were trying to state.
Ask yourself why it must be “cherry-picking” to talk about the article you posted and now everyone has to talk about this other thing instead. You told us that “This Vox article sums it up fairly neatly” so why are we not allowed to talk about the article that sums it up neatly?
Why aren’t people praising the economy because the lowest end earners are making 12% more? I dunno, maybe we should read the article. Or would that be cherry-picking?
The lowest-paid workers in the U.S. economy have seen their wages surge in the past four years, outpacing gains for any other group of earners, according to a new report from Economic Policy Institute - but their wages remain “grossly inadequate.”
[…]
Despite the “exceptional” wage increases, the country’s lowest-paid workers still don’t earn enough to meet most families’ basic needs, the report said.
“Low-wage workers are still not paid enough to make ends meet,” senior economist Elise Gould said in a statement. “Policy makers need to strengthen labor standards so that workers can lock in the gains made and continue to build on them, even in weaker labor markets.”
[…]
Even “exceptional” wage gains aren’t enough to ensure financial security for the country’s lowest-wage workers, the EPI report said. That 12.1% real wage increase over the last several years translated to the lowest-earning 10% of workers making less than $13.52 an hour, or an annual salary of $28,120.
For a family of four, that falls below the federal poverty level.
They’re in deep poverty with grossly inadequate wages that don’t support their family but wave a chart at 'em and I’m sure they’ll come around and praise the economy. After all, spending among people earning $250k is up, dontcha know?
I’m seeing why people are so enamored with charts. Each time there’s an article explaining the charts in depth, the great news for everyone doesn’t seem so rosy any longer.
No, that’s not what this thread is about, and you know it. You and I have been over this numerous times. I started this thread because we have a verifiably strong economy (which even you admitted is true), and we have a strong majority of people who say their own finances are fine, but Biden is upside down in economic polling. That’s what this thread is about. The misinformation cabal is not the only reason for this, but it is a very big part of it, because something like this situation has politically never happened before (to my knowledge).
I just bought gas at wal-mart on Sunday for $3.05/gallon. Gas prices go up and down all the time. I agree that people don’t research where gas is produced. But we’re producing more of it than any country in the history of the planet, and yet, Joe Biden is being treated as if he has a war on gas, which is insane. Once again, there’s a MAGA-induced misinformation campaign as part of it…not all of it, but a big part.
Once again, I’m not “waving charts”. I’m just showing macroeconomic indicators that are very positive by almost any interpretation. There is no “nuance” to sub 4% unemployment for 27 months in a row. And yet, the guy in office is being treated as if he’s presiding over a Herbert Hoover economy if you look at the pollling, while the guy who handed him the nightmare is seen as stronger in the same area. Posting evidence to back up my claims is not the same as “waving charts”. I realize Biden has to tip-toe into this when he talks to people. But the point is that he has a verifiably strong economic record to run on. I sure hope when he campaigns, he doesn’t just act like the country is burning down around him…
But that’s not resonating with voters. Even if voters think Biden hates oil production, they’re not basing votes on it. They’re basing their votes on things they actually experience such as the price of gas. If the number goes up, they’re unhappy and if it goes down, they’re happy again.
People don’t actually give a shit about the geopolitical sphere of oil production even if some pretend that they do. If they could get Terrorist Gas for $1/gal or America Jobs gas for $7/gal, the first fuel tank would be bone dry. We see it with things like clothing: People like to complain about quality and talk about Ohio textile mills but companies like Shien are booming and “100% All American Cotton Garments” is a line on top of the website for bespoke small-run blue jeans.
If people were actually, tangibly, happy with their financial state then it would be showing in their polling for Biden.
Then maybe look for charts about things people care more about that one. Or look for psychological factors beyond “Must be tricked” such as the previously noted facts that people look at wage increases as “earned” by their own value but see price increases as unfairly screwing them over or people see unemployment and financial distress as a moral failing or that people perceive loss more sharply than gain.
Unemployment is down, great. Except most people DID have jobs so they don’t feel that except as a number (but, again, everyone buys eggs and butter). People who didn’t have a job but got one see it as a function of their individual value, not necessarily the macroeconomy so they don’t necessarily praise Biden’s stewardship for something they felt they deserved anyway.
I agree here, or else they wouldn’t be Republicans. However, there has been a shift in the last decade or so when polling Republicans and Democrats. Both parties tend to be more negative on the economy when the other party is in power. But there’s a MUCH stronger partisan association on the GOP side. This didn’t used to be the case. The parties used to be somewhat equal in that partisan impact. Now, Republicans are about 2.5 times as strong.
What this means is that when a Democrat is in office, polling on questions about economics or energy or just about any issue will automatically skew more negative than if a Republican is in office.
I can guarantee you that if Trump became President tomorrow, polls on the economy would very quickly look more positive simply because of this effect.
Yeah, that link doesn’t refute at all what I posted about what’s happened during the Biden years. It has a chart that cuts off in 2020. But I"m talking about post-pandemic years.
The point still stands that under Biden, lower & middle-income workers have gotten bigger % increase in real wages. This is counter to the trend prior related to income inequality. And while he hasn’t made them “rich” by any means, it’s a good development.
It’s kind of funny how, even when left-leaning sources like Vox or the Economic Policy Institute say “Despite the topline numbers, people are still hurting” it’s gotta be that GOP Misinformation that’s making people downbeat.
This isn’t the NBC Nightly News or New York Times trying to stay “balanced”; the only people reading EPI reports are leftist nerds. But they’ve somehow managed to crack the case that topline charts don’t automatically create optimistic voters.
Thanks, I read that article. Again, it doesn’t refute what I’m saying at all.
There’s a difference between wealth and income inequality. Biden’s policies have helped with income inequality. Wealth inequality has moved up and down some, tightening for a while and then maybe going in the other direction. But again, your link doesn’t refute at all what I linked to earlier.
I think Biden needs to at least acknowledge some of the gains made by those lower/middle income groups in income. To not do that would make him look weak.
Well there’s no doubt whatsoever that GOP misinformation is part of the story. That’s not even argued anymore, as it’s very clear, and represents a stark change from the days of yesteryear.
Now, I don’t think Biden can talk about that dynamic, even though he surely knows about it. He has to appeal to independents & democrats who are unenthused about his candidacy. But he has to be able to plan around that fact, and how to combat said misinformation. This is not something that Bill Clinton had to deal with at anywhere near the levels we’re seeing now…
Very clearly, I’m saying that Biden’s policies have helped compress wages, and helped lower & middle wage quintiles. I’ve backed it up with economic links, and your links haven’t refuted at all what I’m saying.
This is another aspect of the economy where Biden has a good record to run on, among others. Yes, I know not every single person in this country has benefited. But if we’re looking at overall real wage gains, we see it more strongly in lower-to-middle class.
I think you yourself are falling victim to some disinformation.
Ok, but you’re not going to change that between now and November so why not worry about the people who have independently come to the conclusion based on their own experiences that the economy isn’t performing for them as they hoped rather than just complaining about how unfair the modern media landscape is?
People brainwashed by MAGA aren’t going to vote for Biden. People concerned about their bills might if given an optimistic message that speaks to their kitchen table rather than being told “You’re just faking it, look at these wage numbers”.
I think part of the issue is the misinformation itself isn’t completely walled off in MAGA-world. It gets out into the larger population. I’m sure there are independents who watch fox news, who might be persuadable. And we need to know where people are getting their information in order to be able to offer up talking points that could potentially refute such information (if they’re available).
Where did I say “you’re just faking it” anywhere in relation to people talking about their bills? You’re putting up a straw man, here.
But we KNOW why people are unhappy with the economy. We have left-wing sources like Vox and the EPI putting out articles about why people are pessimistic. It’s not right-wing propaganda that 12% more of nothing is still nothing when you’re a minimum wage earner who can’t pay rent*. It’s not FOX News making middle class earners look at their grocery bill or credit card statements.
Voters are getting information from their own lives but people in this thread can’t seem to understand that, much less how to react to it.
*And, as a side note to that, pandemic-era safety net gains are being rapidly stripped away. For the last couple of years, my kid’s school has offered free lunches for all students. Next year, they won’t because that funding is gone. This won’t hurt me but it’s gonna hurt someone and they’re going to notice that a lot more than a macro-economics chart. They’re also being informed of it now so they have plenty of time to worry about it before election day. The food bank article I posted before talks about how people using them is rapidly increasing because SNAP benefits are being cut. Same story.
They are obviously, but it appears to me in a few places in this thread you’re actually arguing against the first question moreso than the second. I could be mis-reading you. But that’s how it’s appeared a few times to me.
It’s reassuring that the “information from their own lives” in no way includes the readily available information that conservatives want to eliminate the minimum wage.
When the minimum wage is eliminated and they’re all making $4 an hour, they’ll certainly notice it. If they don’t, you can blame the GOP Brainwashing Cabal. But you’re correct in that people notice and react to things they’re actively experiencing moreso than things just told to them by a talking head. Funny, that.