It’s of extremely low value. It can help you get a mate, and in extremely rare instances, can be lucrative, but past that, what good is it? And what would such praise mean to a black person who can’t dance?
I would say it depends on the valuation in the hearer’s mind, rather than the speaker’s.
And in the appropriate contexts, it would be appropriate to praise individuals for such traits. Michael Jackson is a good dancer. Gilbert Arenas is a good basketball player. But to value the African-American race for its ability to play basketball is to value it for something that’s more of a negative, summed over the population in question, than a positive. A few basketball players make a lot of money, the millions of others don’t get squat, and many thousands of them spend an inordinate time chasing a dream that has lottery-ticket odds of panning out.
Plus, of course, praise for such characteristics, in sufficient quantity, conveys the notion that that’s what you value that person for. My wife’s a much better statistician than I am, but if her cooking is what I always praise her for, there would be a message there.
Same with black people and things like dancing and basketball.
I understand that generalizations and stereotypes are frequently offensive and are usually based on anecdotal evidence or subjective experience. But the people who have made the generalizations seem to have more experience with the negative images than with the positive (at least in the case of negative stereotypes). If you asked me, a middle-class white male, to describe your average rap musician I would describe someone like Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, Tupac or Dr.Dre. It would be an African American artist whose music glorified violence, drugs and the degradation of women. I would not generally mention Will Smith who performed “clean” rap or Eminem who was a white rapper (I also will never include Vanilla Ice).
When I talk to my police friends they will admit that they racially profile because of the experiences they have had in their years of law enforcement. Is it right? No. Is it accurate? Frequently, yes. If they see a white kid late at night in some of the predominantly African-American parts of town, they assume from previous encounters that the kid is there looking for drugs or a hooker. If they see teens wearing known gang colors in the territory of a known gang, they will usually assume that the teens are members of that gang.
The same goes for the “positive” stereotypes. I am related to many people involved in education. They have all said that more often than not that children of Asian descent, especially recent immigrants, do better academically because the families are more involved and a stronger emphasis seems to be placed on education. Similarly they would see that with children from India, Pakistan and the Middle East. This was not a universal thing by any means, but it was what they had observed over decades of teaching or school administration.
Logically, I know that not all people from Tokyo are able to recite pi to a thousand places or that all Mexican Americans are illegal aliens or that all Middle Easterners are terrorists. We all should know that.
But the stereotypes exist and are frequently perpetuated, not by the racists but by the members of their own groups. Rap wasn’t demonized for its sexist and negative imagery until the whole Imus affair. It was accepted as a means of expression by the African American entertainment groups. The rare voices within the community who spoke against it were laughed at (look at the negative responses Bill Cosby got for years).
Carlos Mencia makes a living by insulting the Hispanic community. In a recent promo for his show they showed a skit called “Are you smarter than a wetback?” Or how about Dave Chappelle’s characters?
Where are the moderate Middle Easterners, especially the Muslims, speaking out against the offenses being carried out in the name of a religion of peace? Silence is just as bad as agreement.
Parminder Nagra in E.R. portrays the stereotypical Indian doctor, a superachiever from an immigrant family.
And, of course, you can’t forget The Sopranos
You don’t like stereotypes or generalizations? Good, you shouldn’t. But accept the fact that people see them everyday in their daily lives and in the media. It took ages for African Americans to eliminate the images of Uncle Tom and Mammy, the subservient Negro. But they replaced it with the image of the violent gangbanger, the sexist rapper or the professional athlete.
If you want people to not see you as a stereotype, then refuse to accept the portrayal that is being presented by the media and by the members of your group. Homosexuals don’t like the lisping, prancing, weak-wristed stereotype but play it up at the gay pride parades. African Americans were offended when Biden made his comments about Obama being “articulate” yet many accept “Ebonics”. If you don’t want to be thought of in a particular way, then don’t give your enemies the ammunition!
Ok… What was your point again?
And Sapo, can you point to an example of what you’re talking about in the OP instead of responding with irrelevant Venezuelan maxims?
My point is, if you don’t like being stereotyped in a certain way, than don’t accept it when people of your group (African-American, Jewish, gay, geek, Asian, white, whatever) perpetuate the stereotype. “White men can’t dance.” Take dancing lessons. “All lesbians are butch.” Wear a dress. “All clowns are scary.” …OK, I can’t think of anything that will change that perception.
I’m Irish and I refuse to participate in the BS on March 17. I’m proud of my heritage and I will not join a bunch of drunks singing “Danny Boy” while some asshole dressed as a leprechaun goes dancing down the street. I’ll go to an Irish pub and listen to Irish music but never on St. Patrick’s Day.
My friend is gay and refuses to participate in the gay pride parades because of the campiness of it. He will join in protests and rallies but will not walk down the street behind a Streisand impersonator while some leather boys prance around with their asses sticking out of their chaps. He knew that he was gay from the time he hit puberty and saw what happened to “obvious” homosexuals, so he made sure that he did not fall in to the stereotype. He played football, joined the Marines, became one of the toughest SOBs I ever knew. It wasn’t a cover or a disguise of who he was. He is openly gay and not “in the closet”. But he would also never be seen as a “flaming queer” because he knew that it just gave the homophobes another excuse.
That goes without saying, but why would you assume that people complaining about being stereotyped a certain way are the same people living up to that certain way, or being accepting of it?
What? Sorry but this doesn’t make any sense, neither in practice nor theory. I don’t like being stereotyped, but I’m not about to make it my life’s mission to tell other black people they can’t enjoy watermelon, dancing, and playing basketball. Not only would that be a waste of breath, but doing that would actually be validating the notion that individuals should be judged by the actions of others.
Look at the whole Imus fiasco. Before it all hit the fan no one really spoke out against the negative portrayals in rap music. The silence from the African American community was deafening. When Imus opened his yap, it was a big wake up call. African Americans started to realize that they were presenting an image to white America that was more than negative, it was demeaning.
As long as members of that group accept one of their own exploiting the stereotypes, then it is tantamount to acceptance. Carlos Mencia’s frequent use of the words “wetback” or “beaner” should outrage Mexican Americans. But his show has great ratings and he is chosen as a spokesman for products.
Similarly, the cast of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy sent a message of, “Gay men have an innate fashion sense that straight men will never have.” Where were the calls and letters and protests? If there was a show with WASPs teaching inner city black men to enunciate, wear Brooks Brothers suits and listen to Barry Manilow people would be pissed at how blacks were being insulted and at how white people were portrayed.
Puleeze. Black folks (especially black women) have been griping about hip hop misogeny for quite a while. Of course, coverage hasn’t been devoted to it on the 6 o’clock news every night. You might want to do some research before making blanket statements. The subject has been a hot topic among black folks since the days when “gangsta rap” was just coming out and scaring the masses.
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/JulAug2006/mclune0706.html
http://blackfeminism.org/index.php/2005/04/06/can-hip-hop-be-feminist/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/03/03/hip.hop/
But that aside, I agree that if Imus is to be condemned, all offenders need to be condemned.
Why do posters named erie774 always speak authoritatively on subjects they haven’t bothered to do a cursory study on? (cite)
You’re gay friend sounds like a judgmental jerk who spends all his time condemning other gays who don’t live up to some idealized standard of what he thinks everyone should be like.
An excellent post that I hope doesn’t get lost in the shuffle. You have managed what is seldom done in GD, you have changed my mind. (Although this may not be the point you were trying to make but it pushed my thoughts to a good conclusion)
A positive stereotype is negative because it somehow diminishes the value of the personal achievement.
If little Tetsuo gets an A in algebra and I say “Japanese kids are math wizards”, that comment substracts from the individual effort of that one individual. It implies that he had a natural advantage and that his grade is worth less than that same grado from little Sven or little Tyronne.
Ignorance has been fought.
If that is what’s tripping you, then I withdraw that line. Now feel free to read the rest of the thread and comment on it. Otherwise, I will assume that your drive-by was not meant to be a point on a debate; you just wanted to post a thinly disguised rant in GD. If you need to rant against me, take me to the Pit.
Indeed. If I accuse Larry Byrd of cheating because everybody knows that “white men can’t jump” and he jumps real high (God, I am not a basketball fan, I hope my memory serves me right in that that is his name, he is white and he was a decent jumper. If not, please change to appropriate white good jumper), I would be very wrong in assigning a perceived group trait to an individual. That has no basis.
And a very good point about perceived intention being what makes or breaks a generalization.
You didn’t ask anything. You just tried to pin on me your own racist bias. You can say that I am a closet racist all you want, but that is only you trying to come out. I am deliberately trying to keep these around loose and innocuous examples because I don’t want this to be derailed into discussing the “virtues” of any one particular stereotype.
For the curious, “cada ladron juzga por su condicion” translates to “a thief will assume others are thieves”. It is often mistranslated to “it takes one to know one”. The big difference being that in the thief saying, the “sayer” is not “one”.
The perceived insult is such only because of your preconception that the target group is indeed inferior (or at least widely perceived as such) and your personal valuation of the skills in question. That, in itself, is quite insulting to dancers and religious person, but you might not feel there is anything wrong with insulting inferior people, I presume.
While that point is valid, and has been made before, that wasn’t even the point that RTFirefly was making there.
That’s not what I was trying to do at all. I was trying to get you to be specific about what you’re railing about in the OP, since that’s the only way we can have a real discussion. If you were specific, you’d probably prove my point that your complaint is meaningless, since if I’m right and the threads you’re talking about are the ones where someone ultimately starts off insulting some group (black people), then people being defensive is quite justified. Your question was why can’t we have a discussion about certain ethnic traits. My question is what makes you say that we can’t?
No, I wouldn’t praise John’s dancing abilities with “black people sure can dance”. And John would be right to pissed at someone saying that. Go to a Carnival in a small coastal town in Latin America, though, and that phrase might make some more sense. You will see the black locals dancing the rocks out of the floor and the white tourists trying to nod their heads at the rythm of the music.
But this is not about contriving examples or counterexamples for every possible generalization.
I just can’t wrap my mind around how someone can mentally tack “… they distract people from your ugly teeth” to “Those are lovely shoes”
Saying dancing skills and worshiping skills are of little value has nothing to do with judging any actual person.
Well, duh. 
Seriously, I’m a little surprised that this isn’t easily understood. People who play in the NBA devote a lot of time and effort to getting to that point. Kids who excel in school work very hard to earn their grades. People who cook well actually have spent time in the kitchen and have expended effort understanding how flavors interact, etc.
There really isn’t such a thing as a positive stereotype. For instance, I’ve never met an Amish person before. If I buy the stereotype that all Amish are mellow, technology-fearing people, every single time I see the stereotype “played out” I’m magnifying that behavior and possibly missing out on what motivated the Amish person to react the way he/she did. Conversely, if the Amish person acts “out of character” regarding the stereotype, it’s going to be a much bigger deal than it likely is. Not sure if that’s clear, so why not an example?
Me. I fucking hate watermelon. I think it tastes gross and I do not know why so many of my fellow human beings like it. As soon as that tidbit comes up, people automatically think it’s some sort of political issue with me. (It isn’t. I’ve never liked it, even as a racially dysconscious three year old.) Stupid, I know, but people can’t seem to accept that I just don’t like it.
A friend of mine, who escaped the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia with his older siblings. Not the most academically minded guy, and I’m sure his traumatic childhood didn’t help. He got shit from us, his friends, for not fitting the “model minority” stereotype. He usually got weird looks in his low-track classes (“Why is there a Chinese kid in our class?”). School sucked for him and he dropped out. Got involved in a lot of dumb shit (gangs) but got it together eventually, went back to school, and now owns a small store. But we talk about how miserable school was for him, and how he wouldn’t have had to deal with a lot of crap if he was White, Black, or Latino.
The model minority thing is a joke to me, because I had a large Asian peer group in high school. Sure there were genius kids in the group, but I knew plenty of Asian kids who weren’t that bright. I also knew which kids cheated to get their grades and which ones did it because they were legitimately working hard. Almost every kid I knew who had parents who immigrated to the US did well, which included Ghanian and Panamanian kids.