Why can't I housebreak these dogs?

Factual Questions
1

I have heard that some breeds are not easily trained… but I have four that are just impossible. I am not inexperienced, I have worked animal rescue off and ond for about 40 years now, in one capacity or another, and I have always had dogs in my life.

At the moment, I am running what amounts to a dog hospice… I take the worst of the worst from my rescue group, and let them live out their lives with me. Normally, I would have big dogs, but I am working with a small dog rescue right now, so all my residents are small.

I have a 11 year old achondroplastic dwarf poodle mix, male, unadoptable because he has an unreliable temperament after years of abuse. I believe he is the worst offender, because he has dominance issues.

I have a 16 year old blind male Lhasa Apso, currently battling with the poodle dwarf for top dog spot.

I have a 14 year old terminally ill male Shih Tzu, terribly abused, dominated by the other dogs, and becoming incontinent in his dotage… possibly another major factor.

Finally, I have a 15 year old, three legged toy poodle, a female, puppy mill rescue, who of course never received any previous housetraining, but who oddly, is NOT the worst offender, but only because she doesnt need to compete with the marking males.

I have tried everything I know of, short of keeping them in crates 24/7. If I let them out of the crates, I would have to keep them tethered to me at all times, which is not possible with an aggressive male, a blind one, a three legged one and a very slow, sick one… we would never be able to move. (but would probably be fun to watch)

I scrub the tile floors with bleach and hot water, enzymes, you name it. I throw the rugs away and buy new, the second they are down, someone pees on them. I put pee pads all over the house… they move them to pee on the rug unhindered. I have tried making them all wear belly bands, I have tried training one at a time and all in a group. They have convinced me to NEVER let another small dog in my house, because they are just too difficult… give me a great big goofy Labrador every time.

According to the rescue group’s vet and my own vet, none of these dogs have any physical reason for the house soiling, except for the terminally ill Shih Tzu, and I am not worried about training him, as his time left on earth is short.

If anyone has ANY advice that might help… I am all ears. I have tried all the standard stuff at least twice, so what I need now is crackpot advice, and lots of it! Thanks for any tips.

2

The only advice I can give you is to take them out regularly before they indicate they need to go out. praise them when they poop or Pee. I don’t think I would want to spank an older dog but if they recognise a scolding give it to them. Some of the smartest dogs can be the hardest to housebreak. My chihuahua took 2 weeks and I thought that was bad. I admire that you have given these guys a second chance and a little dignity in their life before they die. Sometimes your time and resources may be better spent on cases that can be rehabbed but only you can be the judge of that.

3

I feel for you.

I had one dog I thought I’d never housebreak. She’d play outside, run in, pee on the floor in front of me, give me a flip of her tail and run back outside to play.
Her nickname was ‘you’re gonna die dog’.
Brattiest dog I ever had but I learned that positive reinforcement when she did right and snubbing her when she did wrong worked wonders. I would fold my arms across my chest and turn my back on her when she did wrong. So try lots of praise when they do well and don’t say a word when they mess up.

I’ve read that the monks who raise German Shepherds and created Science Diet say never let a dog see you clean up their mess. It puts them in a dominant position.

Unfortunately some of these dogs may have never been housebroken. As a pet sitter I have watched small dogs who were never house broken because some people have that ‘small dogs don’t have to be trained’ mentality. I thought I was doing something wrong when every visit I’d have a mess to clean up only to find that precious little foo-foo has always used the carpet. You may be expecting them to do something their previous owners thought they were too fragile to do. Treat them like puppies that have never been trained.

Have you tried doggie litter boxes? Can you confine the two dominant males to separate areas? Tape the pee pads down? Confine them to a tiled area? Try the pee pads that look like grass?

Having four dogs may be part of the problem as well. A dog trainer told me that once you get more than three dogs you are dealing with a pack and the dynamics change. You may want to talk with a professional trainer.
I met with one once when a client was having trouble with a dog and they wanted me to be in on the training program.
The only few things I can remember are:

All dogs are bullies. They will take charge if you don’t.

Never use you dogs name when correcting them or using a harsh tone. It makes them ashamed of their name. Always use their name when praising them.

Have a command word for being released. When you are petting your dog hook your little finger under their collar and hold them loosely. If they get up to walk away let them go but give the release command. You’re not really controlling them but it makes them think you are. Don’t use a common word for the release command. The trainer used to use the word ‘okay’ until one day he had about 10 German Shepherds in a down-stay. Someone walked up and asked how he was doing, he said ‘okay’ and all the dogs jumped up and took off across the field.

Never feed or give your dogs treats without having them do something for it. They should sit before being fed. Some people think it’s mean to expect dogs to do tricks for food. It’s not, it’s a way of reinforcing who is the boss.
I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but I have had several vets tell me that once a dog becomes incontinent and is going in the house it’s time to put them down. It is a form of suffering because dogs do not like to soil their den. I don’t think it applies in your situation, but it’s something to consider when a dog starts having a lot of accidents.

I’m sorry if this is long and rambling, I’m not getting enough sleep. I hope something helps.
Good luck!

4

I’m no Caesar Milan, but I did know a crazy dog lady, who would take in whatever waifs and strays she came across (I think she had 8 or 9 dogs) she had a philosophy similar to Caesar in which she and the dogs were a pack, she was Pack Leader and made sure all the dogs were aware of and respected that fact.

I really wish I had footage of her, but I didn’t have a video camera in those days, but it was incredible watching her ‘controlling’ the dogs. She used a combination of body language and vocal ‘commands’ (mostly snarls and growls) to indicate “don’t do that!” and a yippy happy voice when they did well.

5

Maybe try leaving the dogs outside until they go to the bathroom (on leashes or fenced in, of course.) Or you can try this with each dog individually (though you’d have the problem of the otehr dogs going to the bathroom inside while you’re working with one outside.)

Good luck!

6

These dogs are confined in the kitchen during the day, they have a dog door and have constant access to my locked, fenced back yard. I take them out constantly and praise to high heavens when we are successful.

I believe that now ALL the dogs, despite their early lives of neglect and abuse, have a good understanding of what is expected of them, but for whatever reason, they don’t comply. Well, that isn’t exactly true, many times they do go outside, and then, even though they JUST eliminated, they will pee in the kitchen. With the males, it is marking behavior, and I have been trying to train this out for three years with the dominant dwarf (Simon) and one year with the blind guy (Max Wu). They continue to mark.

I have consulted three vets and literally dozens of trainers. (Because of my rescue work, I have access to loads of free advice from experts, who donate their time to the cause. ) I have read every book I can find on the subject, include the Monks of New Skete cited by another poster (who I don’t entirely agree with) and every other book I can find.

I took all of the carpets out of my house years ago, and tiled everywhere, I use inexpensive area rugs that are cleaned thoroughly (like the floors, with bleach, water, vinegar, lemon juice, enzymes, etc) and then thrown away and replaced on a regular basis.

The terminally ill one, Baxter, is becoming incontinent, and has been ill for a long time. When I got the call asking if I would take him, the vet told me that she didn’t think he had more than 4-6 months, but she knew that I would love him and give him a safe haven from his unbelieveably abusive human, who was starving and beating him to death. That was 14 months ago, and he is not really a concern to me, he can pee and poo wherever he has to, because he can’t help it, and we have special accommodations for him.

As it is, I mop my entire house 2x a day. I check every rug in the house as often as humanly possible, and I just looked at my bed, and someone has peed on my freshly laundered bed skirt and comforter. The traditional wisdom says “confine them until they can be trusted” but I am not comfortable confining these old dogs, as they have been neglected for their entire lives, I want them to be part of the pack, included in all activities and close to me and each other, but, because it only takes a second, and I can’t keep my eyes on all of them all the time, every time I turn around I find another pee.

I have already told the rescue group that I will no longer take males, because they are the root of the problem, with the marking behavior. So, thanks for the input… if anyone has any ideas that I haven’t tried, please feel free… we’ll try anything at this point.

7

To be honest, I think these are outdoor dogs. If they won’t soil their crates, they should be in crates when they are indoors.

Nix on the dog door, that is way too much freedom for these guys.

One problem you may have is that you have one dog (the terminal one) who cannot, physically, be continent in the house – he may be triggering the others.

If these were my dogs, they simply wouldn’t have house privileges. Crate, outdoors, or leashed to me. One can be leashed to you while the others are crated, if you want to spend time with them indoors.

Right now I have a 10 week pup who has been a big housebreaking challenge. Normally herding breeds are simplicity itself to housebreak but not her. No house privileges for her at the moment. Crate and outdoors, unless we are down on the floor interacting with her. Also, she doesn’t get to come back inside until I’ve seen her eliminate outside.

If your dogs are marking, they are doing it for each other. At this point, I don’t think you can do anything about that, beyond removing all but one.

Essentially, my advice is double way down on the rules and the confinement. It sounds to me like it won’t be any more work to go that route than what you’re doing.

8

I feel as if this Far Side cartoon is relevant…

9

It sounds like the problem isn’t that they’re dominant, or small, but that they’re old and in physical and possibly mental decline. 11, 16, 14, 15? Wow.

I don’t know if anything can be done behaviorally at this point. You didn’t elaborate on the belly bands issue. Would it be possible to just diaper them more-or-less 'round-the-clock?

10

I’d have to second the conventional wisdom, but I think you’re also an expert on the subject yourself. I hate playing armchair shrink, but maybe you need to adjust your expectations?

Perhaps you should be content with the idea that you’re making a marginal improvement in their life just by ending the abuse. Dogs like to know what’s expected of them and I think such a rapid change would be a huge adjustment for a person, let alone an old dog. So you might have to provide the confinement they’re used to while you work on basic issues, and then continue to provide additional marginal improvements one at a time.