Wait, are you saying that India is less tolerant of religious belief than America, but China is more tolerant? Because that’s bullshit. IMHO, they’re both less tolerant than America when it comes to religion. (Although regarding India, that’s mostly based on the news reports about fanatical Hindus attacking members of religious minorities. I’m sure that they represent only a tiny percentage of India’s Hindus.)
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. Have you ever met a Muslim? Most of them are perfectly ordinary people. I just spent two years living in a community that’s 40% Muslim, and I’m finding it pretty rude of you to talk about my neighbors like that.
FWIW, I agree with you about Saudi Arabia, though. Their disregard for women is disgraceful, but I would argue that a lot of that is cultural and not religious. None of the Muslim women I know would put up with being told they can’t drive a car or get an education or whatever.
I do see that as bigotry. It may well be that I wouldn’t vote for a Christian fundamentalist, but that would be after listening to what they say and figuring out what exactly it means to them before I made up my mind. The range of what it means to be a Christian fundamentalist or a Muslim encompass such a degree of difference that I wouldn’t hesitate any more for one over the other or indeed over a fellow atheist based on that information alone.
So yes, I do consider that bigotry. It’s taking one piece of information and using that to extrapolate and assume quite vast swathes of other information based solely on it. Ah, so that guy’s on of those, is he? He must think this, and this, and do these things, too - I don’t need to look and see whether he does those things or not, i’ll just take it for granted and start with suspicion immediately.
What are you referring to? Honestly, I’m scratching my head here.
Also, is there a reason you don’t capitalize “Jew”? I’d assume it’s a typo, but you’ve done it three times in this thread now, so that’s sort of looking like a pattern.
Ramira: an honest question. Why don’t moderate Muslims take back their religion? Christianity has had so many schisms where groups broke out when the disagreed. Most American Christians reject papal authority for example.
Isn’t it time for Muslims to say they won’t return to Saudi Arabia for the Hajj until they give women equal rights and respect religious freedom? Why aren’t moderate Muslims protesting Saudi Arabian embassies the way that American whites protested against South Africa?
Where are the protest marches that defend the right of girls in the US to not wear scarfs and be free from violence of fundamentalist relatives?
It’d be great to see an Islamic reformation. Instead it seems to be going the other way.
Lack of capitalization is just laziness.
I was referring to the Inquisition. Now some will say that applied only to Jews that converted, but many Jews converted under pressure.
The Inquisition (Spanish, Italian, French, and otherwise)? The English? The Nazis? (not explicitly Christian) I don’t know what’s being referred to either, but the Jews have been picked on enough times it’s a wonder they associate with anyone else at all.
Islam has no central authority from which you could “break.” There’s no Pope of Islam. By what mechanism are you proposing moderate Muslims “take back” their religion? There’s nothing to take back.
Ever met a fundmantalist Christian? They couldn’t be nicer. That doesn’t mean their religion isn’t fucked up and that if they are in charge their policies won’t hurt many people.
And yes, I know many Muslims. None of them still practice it in any real sense other than the cultural aspects. Much like me and Christmas.
Not sure I understand. By “say the won’t come back for the Hajj” I meant they’d not come back for the Hajj. Maybe they could post a polite letter in the NY Times for the Saudis to read, but they may not want to do that considering Salan Rushdie and Theo van Gogh.
Are you sure? I have had many Muslim students (mostly, as I mentioned, from Easter Europe) over the years, and most are very quiet about it: you would think of it as just being “cultural”, but they quietly keep Ramadan (not a little thing when you are cheering at a football game or playing tennis in TX) and their faith is sincere. They just don’t evangelize.
So like the crazy bearded ones, you like people who act like you, because if they are like you they are good people, but if they do not, then they are bad people. Very enlightening.
Of course since typically most Muslims are not very showy about tihngs like practice, and of course becuase of evident bigotry as shown in the hateful statements like to be a practicing Muslim is to be insane, many people keep quiet.
I’m sure there may be some like you say, I was just trying to be honest that I don’t know many outwardly observant Muslims.
One of my Jordanian friends is gay and observes Ramadan, but is otherwise a non-believer. He is also afraid to go home in case they find out he is gay.
Perhaps because it is politicising the religion and most people are against that, because they do not confuse the Saudis and their domestic habits with the Duty to God to make the Hajj if possible, even if no one likes the Suadis very much?
You treat the Hajj like a vacation, it is not to solid believers, it is a great duty and priviledge. And in any case, it is not something you choose to do, there are limits on how many people can go any year.
You suggest making religion more political, thinking exactly in the same political fashion as the Al Qaeda people. This would make things worse and stupider. But then you are basing your opinions on shallow stereotypes, so this is no surprise.
And you found a video, so I am to conclude you know how to use google, yes? Is there a proper argument beyond you fear and hate Muslims[edt] when they are not westernised to be less scary?