Why did Europe develop basic sanitation so late?

We’ve all heard stories of Medieval Europe- the festering skin diseases on people who refused to bathe, the open sewers. the countless diseases.

But in my travels, I’ve noticed that most cultures develop their own basic sanitation methods. For example, a Chinese person wouldn’t even think about drinking unboiled water or un-peeled fruit. And nobody eats anything with their hands. When hamburger restaurants first opened here, they’d provide plastic gloves for people. These things are just part of the culture, and I doubt people back in the day consciously knew what they were doing. But it works.

In Cameroon, everyone “knew” you had to iron babies clothes, though nobody knew why (the why is that there are parasites that lay eggs in drying clothes) and everyone swept their yards every day. People ate with their hands, but Islam made sure they washed those hands five times a day. There were countless customs and bits of folk wisdom that served the actually purpose of making sure there was basic sanitation.

So why did Europe end up being such a stinky unwashed place? Why didn’t European culture develop these indigenous understandings of sanitation.

It did. Most European cities of any size had public bathhouses, and while most cities had open sewers, they knew to drain the sewers downstream of the city, to put industries that discharged noxious stuff into the river on the downstream outskirts of the city, and so on.

In addition, you have to remember that in medieval Europe, cities are very abnormal, artificial things - until the nineteenth century, they weren’t actually self-sustaining. In other words, the death rate outstripped the birth rate to such an extent that an influx of people from the countryside was required to keep things going. Outside of the crowded environs of a city, things were a lot cleaner and safer, if only because of the space people had from one another.

When did China and Cameroon develop those elements of sanitation? And where did those ideas come from? You seem to be assuming that they developed those ideas earlier than Europe, but comparing medieval Europe to the China and Cameroon of today doesn’t necessarily lead to that conclusion.

my cite is my TV:

Terry Jones (of Monty Python) is a medieval buff who has produced several TV shows about the Crusades and Medieval England. In one show he talked about daily life and diet. He cooked the standard meal know as “gruel” and ate it for us; showing that ,just as the food looked disgusting, it also tasted disgusting.
And the reason was that ALL food was always boiled before eating. They boiled it so long that it became a soft mush with a horrible texture and no flavor.
One reason for the boiling was to make the food edible, because without boiling it was contaminated by manure and human sewage.(without knowing about microbes, they had no idea why–but they had evidently made the connection that shit is good for plants, but not for people)

Another reason for boiling it down to mush was that many (most?) people had lost most of their teeth, and couldn’t chew food.

Paris began to develop its underground sewer system in 1370. What was the question again?

Medieval castles had knowledge of basic sanitation. Chamber pots were emptied into a cesspool, and when that got full, it was time to “clean the drains.” Often, noblemen would leave their castle when the cesspools got backed up – visiting other nobles for a few weeks.

There was a basic understanding the sewage was bad – the smell gives that all away.

The Romans had excellent sanitation systems, with fresh water aqueducts and public bath houses free to everybody. But the Christian church associated these bath houses with orgies and debauchery, and for idealogical reasons took a step backward.

The ancient greeks drank wine diluted with water (1:5), and almost every other ancient civilisation I can think of either drank boiled water or alcoholic drink mixed with water, because water on its own was unsafe to drink.

Now, if your water might be infected with bacteria, because you don’t have yet the technical knowledge to build a sewage plant, and using water upstream while dumping sewage downstream doesn’t work on a long river with lots of cities, then washing yourself rarely is a good strategy. In southern countries, where the danger of salmonella or diahorrea-bacteria in normal water is higher, tourists are still advised to buy a bottle of cheap mineral water for things like brushing teeth, because every drop of water could lead to infection.

If you don’t know about invisible germs causing bacteria, you still notice that bad air = malaira causes sickness, so you keep your windows closed. (Today, we dry out the puddles where the moskitoes breed which transport the bacteria and viruses, but people couldn’t know that). Similar, you noticed that rats were connected to the Black Plague, you couldn’t know that the fleas on the rats carried the germs, and you couldn’t keep all rats out of wooden buildings before concrete or steel was easily available.

My mother bought a cookbook from the 19th century from the North Sea coast of Germany on vacation, and the eating habits were quite different then. People drank small beer (low alcohol content) and hardly ever ate veggies, unless boiled to mush, because veggies might cause illness (through germs), Milk could be infected with TB or other illness from the cow, but that was impossible to see at that time, so better cook it (no vitamins then, though). Meat is of course always cooked thoroughly.

As for the plastic gloves - I don’t think that’s because of hygiene, I think it’s from the custom of wrapping things in paper and similar, which doesn’t protect from germs, but keeps things looking nice.
Besides, studies have shown that these plastic gloves are actually worse for hygiene than bare hands washed regularly (that’s why my organic supermarket did away with them).

So in general, it was lack of knowledge combined with ideology (against bare bodies and similar) and necessity (if people live in a big city, but don’t have the technology for a modern sewage system, you have problems).

When the Europeans met the Native Americans the first time, who bathed daily in rivers, took regular steam baths for spiritual and bodily cleansing and lived in small groups without the chance for disease to spread far, the Europeans considered them uncivilised because they didn’t wear perfume. That perfume served not only to cover the smell of unwashed bodies (because, as said above, water was dangerous in Europe), but also partly as disnfectant - see todays use of aromatic oils with the right ingredients and concentration.
How many Americans today live in fact healthy and hygienic? Because the natural smell of sweat is so abhorrent, people prefer once again to use deoderant to mask or suppress normal smells, or they overreact and wash too much, damaging the skin. But they rarely take saunas (because of prudish reasons), they don’t walk in the open air, driving a car instead, and live in big cities out of necessity (while using drinking water reservoirs as boating lakes). Not much difference perhaps.

Should distinguish between basic sanitation on a society wide basis and improvements in the medical treatment of infection. For the latter Joseph Lister is considered the pioneer in the UK, the French Louis Pasteur, others elsewhere.

One interesting tidbit is that workers who produced lead products knew that they should drink lots of milk. Turns out the minerals in milk help to prohibit lead absorption.

Everyone knew that milkmaids had lovely complexions and were healthy girls. Milkmaids got cowpox and were thus immune to smallpox.

It’s quite true that the countryside was far safer than cities. The cities simply had too many people living too close together.

I thought tooth decay was relatively rare before the introduction of sugar.

Thanks for the interesting tidbits! I think it’s fascinating how societies develop strategies that help them survive longer, even if they have no real understanding “why” they do these things. These are great examples.

Most European cities had public baths, and medieval Europeans tended to bathe about once a week. This didn’t really change until, first, the Little Ice Age made the price of wood for heating more expensive, and more importantly, the Black Death made people fear the baths as a source of disease.

Folk wisdom says you lose a tooth for every baby - breastfeeding takes a lot of calcium, and pregnancy is bad for your teeth.

I have read that in the middle ages, bathing was considered to be spending too much effort on wordly things to the detriment of religous belief. You were not to concern yourself with this life, but to the next.

What’s unhealthy about not taking a sauna?

Plus, Americans bathe regularly.

For the last time, they bathed in the middle ages. They didn’t bathe as often as we do now because they couldn’t just turn on a tap and get hot water, but they bathed. Cities had bath houses. One of the laws of hospitality said that you were supposed to offer a bath to your guests. Before formal dinners, water was passed around so the guests could wash their hands and faces.

Paris had a guild of bathhouse keepers. There’s a story that before Queen Jadwiga of Poland agreed to marry the King of Lithuania, she sent a knight to view him in the bath to make sure he was well formed. In Russia, bathhouses became the customary place for women to give birth.

We have all sorts of evidence for bathing in the middle ages, and even though some moralists condemned it, and there were some hermits who didn’t bathe, we have evidence of baths in monasteries, some popes have recommended bathing, and it’s in the record that the Archbishop of Novograd specifically blessed a bathhouse.

My question (a slight hijack) isn’t so much why didn’t Europe develop it earlier, but why can’t otherwise modern places like Mexico get their shit together?

I mean, I’ve been in five European nations (seven if you break out Scotland and Wales), and a whole bunch of US states, and Mexico, two of which were former East Bloc states.

The only one where the water wasn’t safe to drink was Mexico.

I don’t get it… they have the richest man in the world, and yet somehow, they can’t get their act together enough to have potable water come out of the pipes.

As I said in my other post, you need several factors to have good water:

Geology. The scandinavian and Eastern European countries have enough rainfall; South America is worse off.

Corruption: both of pipes, and of politics. If there’s no money to pay for repair of pipes because the country is poor, like Mexico, or if the money ends up in the pockets of corrupt politicans and contractors, then up to two thirds of the water get lost between tap and provider, and the rest gets contaminated.

If the country is too poor to build a proper fresh water facility, or too corrupt to enact and control tough laws about the quality of the water, then the water isn’t safe to begin with.

Lack of awareness and concern is also a factor. In a poor quarter or slum in South America, if there is no sewage system with proper pipes, the politicans don’t care that children get sick and die drinking from the polluted infected creek because they can’t afford to pay 1 Dollar for one liter of good water from the private trucks. Acces to clean, safe Water for everybody is only starting to be recognized as human right, although the UN and similar predicts already that the wars of this century will be about clean water and not oil.

In Eastern European countries, citizens expected good water as matter of course for a civilised country, and would have made a lot of noise if the government hadn’t cared.

Privatisation: not in Mexico, but in another South American Country (I think Brasil?), politicans sold all the water rights to a complete city to a private company. The citizens don’t even legally own the rain that falls. The results were the same as in the UK under Thatcher: prices raised, repair and basic maintenance stopped, profit for the company, bad water for the citizens.

As for water, sometimes it just isn’t a priority. I live in China, which certainly does have the resources to supply clean water. But they don’t. Most Chinese people never really think about it. They routinely boil their water and that is that. People have never even had the expectation that the water coming out of the pipes should be clean, so they don’t get too worked up that it’s not.

And don’t get too high and mighty. We have strange priorities, too. Americans live with one of the cleanest and safest supplies of water in the world piped straight to our house for practically free. And we still choose to spend money buying bottled water that probably isn’t even any better in quality.

I lived in a Cameroonian village. People ate a low-sugar, high-grit diet. Some people brushed their teeth, some people chewed on sticks, and some did nothing. I don’t think many people could afford toothpaste. A dentist came around twice a year to pull out rotten teeth.

About half the people had beautiful white shiny teeth that we would pay thousands to get. The other half had black rotted out stumps. It seems like things are less likely to go wrong as a routine, but if things do go wrong they turn spectacularly bad.