Why did I agree to help you???

The BBQ Pit
1

I just previewed and this is really poorly written. Sorry.

So I’m a film major at UNLV and right now I’m kind of focusing on editing digital video, mostly because I have a decent computer and a copy of Adobe Premiere. Last year, my friend Derek starred in a movie I made, and I edited a movie of his. I should have learned my lesson then…

His movie from last year was really a piece of garbage. It was a serious short film about domestic violence, and had potential. Derek knows what makes for a good shot. He’d be a decent cinematographer. Problem is, Derek can’t tell a story with pictures for shit. I struggled just to piece together the shots he did get to have some sense of continuity. I made something at least watchable of his footage, and even though it got a terrible reception at last year’s UNLV film fest, I was pretty proud of the improvements I made to it.

Flash forward to this semester, when I foolishly agreed to edit another of his films. I suppose I didn’t learn my lesson the first time, and he certainly hasn’t learned anything about making movies. His film this time is about premarital sex and religion, but you wouldn’t know that from watching it. I’m not sure if he’s trying to just be subtle and overdid it or if he doesn’t realize at all that his movie doesn’t explain anything, but it’s 10 minutes of “huh?” The entire thing takes place in a dorm room, but he insists that I include the footage he got of the main character dropping rose petals in the desert, in reverse. Apparently it’s symbolic, although he can’t explain what it symbolizes…

Anyways, so I told him I’d edit it, and I pieced part of it together, but it’s really really difficult to finish it up, because no matter what I do or how much time I spend on it, I’ll still be handing a really really shitty film back to him with my name on it. Not really looking for advice or anything, just wanted to tell you all what a horrible filmmaker he is, since I can’t exactly tell him that way.

So yeah, Derek is a complete fucking hack who isn’t fit to direct discount bin porno. His scripts are all sad attempts at showing social issues, yet end up being vague nonsensical garbage. His only good-looking shots are completely out of place in the film, as they’re apparently symbolic and deep and meaningful, yet they leave the audience wondering just what the fuck he was trying to say with that random poetic moment.

Fucking film students.

2

Yeah, that sucks, looks like the oonus is on you.

Sorry, nothing constructive except the play on word. Digital video good, digital video bad.

3

You consider yourself an editor, but, even when you realized your composition was poorly written, you still clicked “submit”?

4

Film students who want to be the next Kubrick right out of the gate are like physics students who want to be the next Einstein; i.e., some of them become Hiryu.

5

Ooner, I feel for you, here in Oz. I’m a cinema/drama major at La Trobe University, who spends his free time in the Student Theatre Office as the informal “Person who actually knows how to use Premiere” (And I’m actually geting paid for it too…). I’ve been comissioned to put together a year in review of the various things the Theatre and film office have put on in the last year as an enticement for new students next year. As part of my research I went back and watched the last 6 years worth of Student films.

The Horror, the horror…

Six years of poorly shot, badly written and incredibly inept directed garbage. Six years of movies about suicide, Tarantino rip offs and quote experimental films unquote.

At the moment I’m sharing the facility with an older student who keeps coming back to re-edit her film, despite the fact it was shown two months ago and is highly unlikely to ever be taken by a serious festival. She seems assured that a couple of snips will make it a masterpiece despite the problems being at script level.(For example, the film begins with two characters going to a weekend retreat, gets there, and then forgets about them all together.) I’m having real trouble not telling her that she can’t polish a turd.

BTW Libertarian, I’d be glad if any of them knew who Kubrick was, most of them want to be David Fincher, a very depressing thought, others attempt for and miss the level of Kevin Smith, and a very small few saw Chris Marker films in class and only succeed in copying the feeling of trancendental boredom.

6

Naked? :smiley:

Seriously, have you tried discussing this with him, and is it too late for him to add or reshoot footage?

When I was in film school, a fellow student was my cinematographer. We would debate over what I wanted to shoot, but ultimately, he would always shrug and say, “You are the director.” And we shot it mostly my way.

I assisted on his film. That was excruciating. He and I and his actress spent most of a bitterly cold February day on the CMU campus, with him rubbing his chin and saying, “How do I want to do this?”, her shivering and getting increasingly impatient with him, and me trying valiantly to keep her entertained and content to stay.

Eventually, both our films were screened along with our classmates’. Mine was the only one to get reactions to its dialogue: laughs during the funny parts and a gasp at a particularly sharp insult. His was visually the most beautiful, and it made sense, despite its only dialogue being a solioquy from the actress at the end. (Sorry to say, but Derek’s not the only one who has difficulty telling a story with pictures. Many students try to film with little or no dialogue. Many end up with an incomprehensible mess.)

It wasn’t until afterwards that I realized both of us could have learned from each other. My concerns were with the dialogue, the actors’ movements and gestures, the setting, and the lighting. I wanted him to light the mood I wanted, but I resisted every time he tried to get me to make the film move. I’d had two people talking on a roof garden in my previous film, and this one was seven different conversations, intercut with establishing shots. I should have taken him more seriously: seven set pieces are not necessarily a movie.

But what I was good at was planning ahead. One of my professors told me years later that he held me up as an example to incoming students, because I would do stuff like go on location scouts and get test footage before shooting, and list everything, and generally be well-organized. I was doing stuff that’s pretty basic for a production department, but I was doing it without being told. They really didn’t prepare us for the life of a grunt very well*; they definitely focused more on the art of filmmaking, rather than the labor. Anyway, and I always had a backup plan, but I rarely needed one because the first one had been well-considered. My mate had had plenty of time to observe this, and if he’d taken the same diligent approach, he might not have needed me as a go-between in getting the actress to the screening. She forgave him when she saw how stunning it was, but he could have planned his shots ahead of time and achieved the same effect without alienating her.

So if you’re still reading, I highly recommend that you have a talk with Derek about why you can’t spin a bunch of random shots, however good individually, into cinematic gold. Maybe it’s not too late to save this film. If it is, you can still offer advice on how to make the next one better.

*The equipment office guys got offended the first time I handed them a list. I didn’t know then that that’s called a pull list, which any lighting crew submits to the rental house when they’re ready to collect their (reserved; not an option at this school) equipment, but it was supposed to make their job easier! It was not, as one of them claimed, “presumptous…as if we’re your servants”. Kiss my curvy butt, you overgrown I-don’t-wanna-compromise-and-work-at-a-TV-station George Romero wannabes! You wanna keep coming back up here and asking what else? Then you could complain about how long it’s taking, which I didn’t want to happen.

7

You made some good points, Rilch, and you definitely know what you’re talking about. Still, I wonder if it might not be better if, in the future, Ooner takes a pass by saying that their styles don’t mesh well, or they don’t share the same vision or approach or something.

As I read your post, it almost seems as if you’re recommending Ooner engage in some kind of tutorial, trying to coach and teach certain cinematic techniques or methods to this guy. I’m not sure that’s a good idea, for a variety of reasons.

A student’s work should stand on its own, even if it’s dreck. That’s what school is for. If they’re collaborating on a project for a grade, then the input of both is of equal importance, but helping with the editing on a project is not the same thing. From the OP, it sounds like he’s doing his friend a favor, and now that he’s hip-deep in it, he regrets it.

There’s also the bugaboo of “artistic temperament.” Maybe Derek’s film is crappy and pretentious and obscure and no good. But it’s his crappy, pretentious, obscure, no-good film. He may either be too close to his project to realize its flaws, or else he is blind to them, and thinks it’s brilliant work. In either case, it’s not Ooner’s responsibility to point it out to him. That’s the faculty’s job.

In the future, perhaps Ooner could opt out by telling Derek he doesn’t think they work well together, or that he doesn’t share Derek’s “vision” of the film, or something.

8

There’s nothing quite like getting shitty footage dumped in your lap. Back in the day when I did video editing at school (deck-to-deck analog transfers - none of this fancy digital stuff) I was assigned to help some bimbo journalism student. She claimed she had been a journalism major for two years. She brought her tape in to be “edited” and I said, “OK, let’s go through it and see which shots we want to use.”

She got a perplexed look on her face and said, “Huh? I wanna use all of them.”

Yeah, that was fun.

9

No, DAVE: I’m not saying tutorial. What I’m thinking of is this:

Ooner: I gotta talk to you about editing this thing…See, it’s hard to to make it cohesive when there just aren’t enough shots.

Derek: But those shots are in there for a reason! Oh lord, how many times did I hear THAT…I believe I even said it myself once

Ooner: No, the problem’s not with the shots you have; it’s with the ones you don’t have. What’s supposed to connect these two shots?..No, I’m not criticizing; I’m trying to help. What do you really want this to look like, so I can make it happen?..All right, I’ll do it that way; it’s your project. But next time—look—friend to friend—you really need more coverage.

Derek: Okay. But you gotta include that rose-petals-in-the-desert shot.

Ooner: You got it. Oh, and…can you tell me what it is that that shot symbolizes? I gotta pal online, name of Rilchiam, really wants to know. :wink:

He doesn’t have to do it “next time”, either, but since he’s already stuck doing this one, he might as well try a different approach with Derek. I’m not suggesting that he critique the film itself, but if Derek wants him to help, Ooner’s not wrong to tell him what’s making it difficult to do so.

10

Valid point, Rilch. And hopefully, Derek will take it in the spirit it’s intended. Although it kind of sounds almost like a collaboration. Depends on the approach taken, I s’pose.

There may also be a difference in working in film (with which I have as much experience as your average terrapin) and book editing (with which I have slightly more experience. More than a terrapin, anyway).

When I edited, I always just noted something like “needs a better transition” and left it to the author to figure out. That’s what the author was for. It worked well for the projects I had, at any rate. Maybe it’s different for film, or for a cinematographer or editor of film. I dunno. The terrapins ain’t sayin’.

11

Dave, the difference I can see is that book authoring is usually pretty much a solo effort in the real world, whereas making a film rarely is. I also don’t know much about either one of these things myself, but being at the very baby beginning in my digital animation class, our teacher told us “Don’t be afraid to ask others for tips, ideas, sources, what-have-you, because when you actually get a job doing this stuff that’s how you’re going to be working.” Collaboratively. So it may be a good learning experience for both of them to have to communicate with somebody else about their vision, style, technique. That is, somebody who is doing the job he’s hopefully going to be doing out in the real world, as opposed to having the faculty simply hold one’s hand through the whole project. Depends in part on the nature of the assignment, I suppose.

If Ooner can’t salvage this project but feels stuck working on it anyhow, the only thing I can suggest is make sure it doesn’t have his name on it. Use a pseudonym, if possible.

Oh, and

I just had to see that again. Leechboy, I am swiping this, if you don’t mind.

12

Allan Smithee!

13

I thought George Spelvin was the standard pseudonym.

14

Wow, I thought this thread had vanished almost immediately. Thanks a bunch for all the advice folks, it’s much appreciated. I think the major problem was that I took too much interest in making the film work (Derek’s job) than piecing together what I actually had to work with.

Basically what I’ve done is put together the footage he gave me mostly the way he wanted it, and talked with him about the problems I have with the film. After discussing it, he’s realized some of the problems, and while it’s too late to really fix much of it, he agreed to cut some of the silly unneccesary artsy randomness, and make the dialogue less um… vague when he does ADR and voice-overs.

My name is on the film, but only as editor. I figure no matter how terrible it is, nobody will ever blame me for it. It is clearly Derek’s movie, and I made sure to make the “Written and Directed by” credit very large in comparison to mine. :slight_smile:

As far as working with Derek again, the only thing I could imagine doing would be writing, producing, and AD while he directed and/or did cinematography. I’ll certainly not agree to have a small part on one of his films again. He’s got things to contribute, but I really just don’t think he’s capable of making a movie by himself, and maybe working just one smaller job on someone else’s movie or a real collaborative effort would help him see how it’s done.

15

Thanks for the update! Glad it all went well.