Why did my vet (indirectly) kill my epileptic dog?

[GrumpyBunny]

FWIW, I think that **BigT **is spot-on here.

@astro

Going after a vet about being overly cautious in prescribing controlled drugs when your prior actions are providing a near textbook example of the irresponsible behavior that causes such caution is beyond irony.

I think I missed something – setting aside the right or wrong of sharing medications with a friend, how would the vet know that this happened?

[Pantastic]

OK, now it’s pretty clear why the vet didn’t want to perscribe valium. Either she’s aware of the previous drug dispensing, or something that the OP has said or done indicated to her that the OP has absolutely no problem handing out drugs prescribed for her dog to friends. Anyone who can prescribe schedule drugs can get in a lot of trouble if it turns out someone is using their prescription for illegal purposes. BigT can decide that a vet who wants to keep her license so she can stay in practice or worried about misuse of controlled substances is a ‘bad vet’, but I don’t agree, and neither do vet licensing boards or the DEA.

OP, I suspect you’re going to cause a lot of trouble for yourself if you pursue the idea of formal complaints and/or a lawsuit. Do you really want your vet to respond by putting into formal record why she was hesitant to prescribe valium to your pet, or to talk to other vets about the crazy lawsuit she had to deal with from the drug-seeking woman? You may put yourself into a position where no vets want to risk prescribing anything to you.

[Tom_Tildrum]

Stoid, it’s just one anecdote, but FWIW, the one time I had to do that for my dog, it didn’t do a damn thing. She was still in status epilepticus when we got to the emergency vet. My vet agreed that rectal valium is the standard of care, but her experience has been that it is frequently ineffective. I can’t speak to what your vet was thinking, but I hope you can take done reassurance that omitting this step is not necessarily what caused your dog’s death. I’m very sorry for your loss.

[pidgeon92]

Sorry for the loss of your dog… One of my hounds is epileptic as well. Fortunately she doesn’t have seizures often, but it’s heartbreaking to witness. My vet gave me Phenobarbital to give her if she has multiple seizures within a few days of each other, luckily we haven’t had that situation yet. She hadn’t had a seizure since New Year’s Eve, and I thought maybe she wouldn’t have any more, but she just had one two nights ago.

[Penfeather]

@BigT

Scheduling drugs has nothing to do with preventing them from being handed out in emergencies. It’s to prevent abuse. And taking a single pill is not abuse.

Unluckily for stoid, she’s not the one that gets to decide that, and neither are you. Abuse is her breaching the tight conditions under which a legally restricted medication was provided by giving it to others for any reason; there isn’t an out clause which says “unless you think your friends are really miserable”.

[Helena330]

Whatever the reason for the vet’s not giving Stoid the valium, she could’ve tried something else. It doesn’t appear that the vet was very helpful at all.

I’m sorry, Stoid.

[bobkitty]

Which is why a backup plan would have been useful (not the emergency vet). Stoid knew what she wanted, she felt she knew the best course of action for the situation, but instead of running to a different vet, she chose to try to convince this vet of the rightness of her opinion. No one would accept this kind of behavior from a doctor- why allow it for a vet?

[Muffin]

Because Stoid.

[Shodan]

@bobkitty

Stoid knew what she wanted, she felt she knew the best course of action for the situation, but instead of running to a different vet, she chose to try to convince this vet of the rightness of her opinion. No one would accept this kind of behavior from a doctor- why allow it for a vet?

What do you call it when someone goes from doctor to doctor asking for a valium prescription?

Regards,
Shodan

[j666]

@Shodan

What do you call it when someone goes from doctor to doctor asking for a valium prescription?

Regards,
Shodan

It would depend on how bad the person’s symptoms were.

[Lucas_Jackson]

@Muffin

Because Stoid.

This is the answer. Her posts are my cite.

[Muffin]

@Stoid

my vet, who flatly refused to provide me with the valium. Her reasoning was vague, the only thing she would say was that it was a “controlled substance”

. . . .

Why? What the fuck?

Either (a) after having interacted with you, she doesn’t want you misusing a controlled substance, or (b) after having interacted with you, she wants to ensure that you never return with your dog or with your next pet.

Or both.

My guess is (a).

[bobkitty]

@Shodan

What do you call it when someone goes from doctor to doctor asking for a valium prescription?

The same thing I’d call someone who wastes vital treatment time trying to convince a doctor that they’re not drug seeking. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much” and all that.

[Penfeather]

@bobkitty

The same thing I’d call someone who wastes vital treatment time trying to convince a doctor that they’re not drug seeking. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much” and all that.

I immediately started assembling every resource I could find to prove to my vet that she needed to provide the valium- looking up veterinary colleges, scholarly papers, etc. - all of which said exactly what I knew they said

But she had cites from the University of Google! That trumps the vet’s paltry study, qualifications, experience and a licence to practice and dispense!

[Pantastic]

@GrumpyBunny

I think I missed something – setting aside the right or wrong of sharing medications with a friend, how would the vet know that this happened?

It’s possible that she told the vet, since she doesn’t think there was anything wrong with what she did - people will spontaneously confess to all kinds of stuff that you would think they’d keep secret. Even if the vet doesn’t know that particular situation happened, we know that she thinks that giving her friends valium because they’re stressed is OK, and doesn’t keep that belief hidden, so it’s quite likely that she said or did something that was a cause for concern for the vet. It’s not unreasonable to assume that if we know a person has characteristic A, and a vet treats them like they have characteristic A, that the vet has some idea that they have characteristic A, even if we don’t know exactly what information the vet is working with.

[Muffin]

@Penfeather

But she had cites from the University of Google! That trumps the vet’s paltry study, qualifications, experience and a licence to practice and dispense!

Hey, it worked for her with her self-rep lawsuit. Well, er, sort of not . . . .

[Stoid]

@Muffin

Stoid, quit bitching about the vet doing her job. .

If she had done her job my dog wouldn’t be dead. Her job, according to her oath:

Veterinarians Oath
Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health and welfare, the prevention and relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge. I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics. I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.

The very first principle of Veterinary Medical Ethics:

A veterinarian shall be dedicated to providing competent veterinary medical care, with compassion and respect for animal welfare and human health.

Annotations to that:

Veterinarians should first consider the needs of the patient: to prevent and relieve disease, suffering, or disability while minimizing pain or fear.
Regardless of practice ownership, the interests of the patient, client, and public require that all decisions that affect diagnosis and treatment of patients are made by veterinarians.
The choice of treatments or animal care shall not be influenced by considerations other than the welfare of the patient, the needs of the client, and the safety of the public.
The medical judgments of veterinarians should not be influenced by contracts or agreements made by their associations or societies.
Performance of surgical or other procedures in any species for the purpose of concealing genetic defects in animals to be shown, raced, bred, or sold as breeding animals is unethical. However, should the health or welfare of the individual patient require correction of such genetic defects, it is recommended that the patient be rendered incapable of reproduction.
Attending veterinarians are responsible for choosing the treatment regimens for their patients. It is the attending veterinarian’s responsibility to inform the client of the expected results and costs, and the related risks of each treatment regimen.
Veterinarians may not promote, sell, prescribe, dispense, or use secret remedies or any other product for which they do not know the ingredients.
Humane euthanasia of animals is an ethical veterinary procedure.

The second principle with annotations:

A veterinarian shall provide veterinary medical care under the terms of a veterinarian-client-patient relationship (VCPR).
It is unethical to engage in the practice of veterinary medicine without a VCPR.
Veterinarians shall honor a client’s request for a prescription in lieu of dispensing.
Veterinarians may terminate a VCPR under certain conditions, and they have an ethical obligation to use courtesy and tact in doing so.
If there is no ongoing medical or surgical condition, veterinarians may terminate a VCPR by notifying the client that they no longer wish to serve that patient and client.
If there is an ongoing medical or surgical condition, the patient shall be referred to another veterinarian for diagnosis, care, and treatment. The former attending veterinarian shall continue to provide care, as needed, during the transition.
When an attending veterinarian assumes responsibility for primary care of a patient, a VCPR is established with the attending veterinarian.
Clients may terminate the VCPR at any time.

And on and on… My vets job was to provide the best care she could. If she had an honest concern that I was a druggie, she had an ethical responsibility to refer me to someone else, and to properly care for my dog until then.

She did not have the ethical option to simply withhold treatment, which is what she did.

It turns out, by the way, that if I were fraudulently seeking drugs, that’s my crime, not hers. Her crime would be to knowingly provide me with drugs under false pretense or otherwise provide them outside the scope of real need.

And as far as any suspicions she might have had, which would obviously have to have been that for [fill in nefarious reason here] I was lying about my dog’s condition to get my hands on valium, they went poof when Zusje was seen by the emergency vet months ago when she was in her postictal state and they provided me with valium.

My research has revealed what I think is at least partly her reason for withholding the meds; paperwork. Last summer there were changes in the laws that made it extra obnoxious to dispense controlled substances.

Again: she can think whatever the hell she wants. She can be as paranoid as she likes. But the medically responsible and ethical way to deal with her discomfort is absolutely not to simply withhold treatment and babble a bunch of patently untrue bullshit to excuse her irresponsible and unethical behavior. It is to refer me elsewhere and care for my dog in the interim.

[Joey_P]

@Stoid

If she had an honest concern that I was a druggie, she had an ethical responsibility to refer me to someone else, and to properly care for my dog until then.

I think I missed that line, could you bold it for me?
Also, there’s this:
“The choice of treatments or animal care shall not be influenced by considerations other than the welfare of the patient, the needs of the client, and the safety of the public”

So, your vet decided that the course of treatment was best. Now, statements like this are meant to dissuade doctors (vets and otherwise) from giving people or animals one drug over another in exchange for swag, but, oddly, in this case giving you Valium is pretty clearly a public health concern.

When did

Her reasoning was vague, the only thing she would say was that it was a “controlled substance”

turn into

babble a bunch of patently untrue bullshit

In fact, you said yourself that controlled substances are harder to write scripts for, so why are you now saying that it’s patently untrue bullshit?

[Joey_P]

Sorry, one last thing.

@Stoid

If she had done her job my dog wouldn’t be dead.

It just ludicrous to state that.

[Penfeather]

Stoid, do you not realise that in the real world showing your vet a bunch of stuff you just Googled won’t automatically make her do what you want? What it does is make you look like more of a desperate drug-seeker, not less.