I must take you to task on this.
The Normans and Saxons worked things out. I can’t think of much else save we Jews being kicked out of Spain, England, and murdered in Germany, Poland and Russia.
And, were you speaking of social position or nationality in your first post?
And I sure would like to find that Passover barbecue sauce…Corky’s just ain’t the same. I bet it’s got real sugar in it rather than corn syrup.
Well, Germany during the Holocaust was a dictatorship, so the government controlled the press and dissenters, such as the White Rose group, were promptly punished.
Also, what level of responsibility are we talking about here? A number of American companies knew that their parts were being made by concentration camp prisoners but continued to do business with Germany. In fact, IBM made punch cards specifically designed for the accounting done in the concentration camps. Would you say that they went along with the Holocaust?
Okay, well aside from the Holocaust, have the Germans ever sought to exterminate an ethnic group? (I can’t think of another genocide at the moment.)
And are we only counting genocides within the country? What about genocides or mass murders committed by a country outside its borders? Or collaboration with genocidal governments?
Congratulations. I take it that gleefully getting General Questions threads moved is a hobby of yours. Thanks a lot.
Yes. It’s not factually true. See Snopes.
However, the widespread lingering Antisemitism in other countries made the Nazis’ final solution easier: because Jews weren’t liked well in other countries, not as many could find asylum as necessary, some were turned back over to the Gestapo at the borders.
When the first accounts of the KZ got out, many people said “That’s only lies spread by the pernicious Jews trying to drag us into a war with Germany, obviously such atrocities can’t be true”.
Or how about that the Allied bombers, once they had air supremacy, bombed all civilian cities to break morale, but never bombed the KZs themselves or the railways leading there? It certainly gave the impression to the Nazis that they were right in assuming that everybody hated the Jews, and they were the ones with guts to do the dirty that was necessary to protect their own race from pollution (as their ideology said).
Yes; despite Goldhagens popular book, it was easy for the average German to not really know what went on at the KZs, and that some weren’t work camps like Dachau, but extermination camps like Auschwitz. Most people want to get on with their lives and not bother about what a mess the world is in, because that means work getting to know facts, empathy to care about others, more work getting involved trying to change things… far easier after a long day at the factory to switch on the radio and listen to music, or go to the cinema and see a romantic movie.
There are many documents about how the top Nazis try to hide the extent and scope of the final solution from the general public. Himmlers infamous speech to SS men abou thaving the courage to do what thousands of other people wouldn’t have been able to do also shows this.
Sadly, the German government, the Kaiserreich*, killed the Herero tribein Africa during an uprising in 1904 by pushing them into the desert, posting soldiers at the perimeter, and waiting until they had all died. The only people who survived where mixed children. The whole thing was relativly unknown in the broad public until 2004, at the 100 anniversary, the modern state of Germany formally apologized, and there was a lot of press about it.
Unique? Tell that to the Arabs. Or the KKK. Or the Nation of Islam.
Terry Jones, in The Crusades, noted that to get more people to join the First Crusade, the Pope at the time decreed that “Thou shalt not kill” only applied to killing other Christians. He meant that killing Muslims was hunky-dory, but Germans to the north applied it to their own resident non-Christians.
Well, that is worrying. I always had you down as one of the more clued in posters but seriously man, you need to start fighting the good fight close to home.
So apart from the genocide on the indians, which I’m going to hand-wave away and the enslavement of people of different colour which I’m going to simply not mention, GO USA!
It’s also rather smart to compare the short history of the USA to the long history of Europe, wherein the history of the USA is a blink of the eyes. Most European countries have not tried to cleanse the neighborhood of people not like them during the last 250 years.
Where abouts in Yorkshire? I’ve lived there for a decade and the general feeling is that people couldn’t care less what class you are. It seems wherever you lived and the experience you had was not even indicative of the county you were in.
It is impossible to say that Europeans behave a particular way. Europe perhaps equally or more diverse, culturally than America is, and wherever you go you can find examples of whatever generalisation you want to make. You can find examples of sexual freedom, of racism, of xenophobia, of liberty, of freedom of the press, of whatever else you can think of. Just because you can call upon an anecdote regarding a part of one of Europe’s cultures doesn’t mean it’s indicate of anything. I imagine I could do the same thing with America, if I were so inclined to make out that it was a Bad Place.
My dear friends, thank you all for your comments upon my comments. I shall think on them and give them full credit that I might very well have a beam in my eye. But, I ask you to allow me to restate my observations in order that you might examine your own opinions.
It is difficult for a modern American to understand the European ant-Semeitism of the pre-war period. This is partially because the pre-war period was a long time ago. It is also partially because Europeans have a long and dark history of ethnic hatred that is largely foreign to Americans.
The arguments against this stand are manifold. The first of them seems to be that there is nothing unique about pre-war European anti-Semeitism. While we are all sinners, not all of us have the same sins. European anti-Semetism came from centuries of pogroms, massacres and libels. It is simply did not compare to limits of Jews attending some American universities or gentlemen’s agreements to keep a neighborhood all white and Christian.
Unless we can agree on this, there can be no answer to the original question. Unless we can agree on this, we simply deny something special happened in Europe and refuse to look at the simple historical record.
OK, so if something special happened in Europe, what caused it? It could be the water. But I think not.
Look at European history in macro. It is a series of endless wars between Germans and Frenchmen, Spaniards and Moors, one group defined by language and culture against another. One ethnic group against another.
The European states are ethnic states; not completely nor purely, but largely. France has a national language, Poland a national cuisine, Spain a dominant religion. In comparison look at the US. Can you tell me the national language of the US? (Can you explain your opinion to a cabbie in New York?) What is our national cuisine? Art form? Religion? Dress?
The idea of hating someone because they go to a different church is hard for a modern American to wrap his head around. Europeans do it all the time, this despite the cartoon of Americans as a bunch of rednecks.
Compare the peaceful history of ethniclly-mixed Switzerland to the blood-soaked history of (well, really just pick any of them, say Sweden).
Europeans hated Jews because they were not members of the national ethnic group. Worse than that, they were right down the street and easy to get to.
The facts are clear. Ethnicly-based nations are by their nature hostile to outsiders and nonconformists. Europe (especially in the pre-war era) is made up of ethnic states. This has led to ethnic hatred that is hard for Americans to understand.
I would include in those who do not understand those who say the European hatred toward Jews needs no explanation and brooks no study.
I will follow this thread, and may comment more. It is not my intent to upset anyone. The argument seems to be clear and convincing. (I admit my attempt to state it might be poor) I am surprised it is not obvious to so many here.
No, we Americans committed genocide against the people who owned the land we didn’t yet own but ought to have.
Good point, look at the difference. The Americans killed people by the basketful to steal their land. Had the American Indians given up the land and moved someplace the white would not have killed them. It was robbery pure and simple.
But had the Jews given the Germans something or another, that would not have saved their lives. They were killed for being Jews. As I said, it is hard to understand.
The Jews did not have anything the Germans wanted. They did not so something that the Germans wanted to stop them from doing. They simply were Jews, that was enough.
This wasn’t the Jews greatest sin.
No…their greatest sin is that they tended to be SUCCESSFUL!
How dare they.
Not true; the Jews in Poland (for example) were not generally well-off but were killed. Poor Jewish peasants and rich professional Jews were equally targeted because of their ethnicity.
Largely English. What is the national language of Spain? France? Britain?
Largely Protestant Christian.
You can spot an American from a mile away, just based on how they dress 
A: 400 years, thank you.
B: Funny, I seem to remember some things.
England.
http://web.archive.org/web/20021111111136/http://www.umbc.edu/history/CHE/InstPg/RitFamine/irish-famine-historiographical-issues.html
France.
England, slightly earlier.
Now, I admit, that is not ‘most European countries’. Why, Belgium’s completely innocent.
… Italy. Italy’s completely innocent.
But… well. We all have bloody hands.