Why did so many pre- WWII Europeans hate the Jews?

[The_Great_Philosopher]

@Paul_in_Qatar

It is hard for a modern American to understand. Americans believe at a deep-down level that you are what you choose to be. I’m a teacher (and so sort of an intellectual). My Dad was a telephone man (and so a manual laborer). I see no connection between my father’s lot in life and mine.

Europeans, to generalize, feel a person is what he is. This one is a German, that one a member of the proletariat. You cannot change what you are.

Consider the case of Madeline Albright as considered by my friend Stefan. Stefan was a Brit, but of Polish roots. Asked his nationality, he always answered Polish, although he had never been there. . So this friend of mine pointed out Albright was a “dirty Jew.” I reminded him she was raised in a Catholic family and “had accepted the Salvation that comes with His Blood.” Not to be turned aside by an appeal to his own faith, Stefan observed “A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.”

How charming.

So the Jews have always been a people apart in European thought. Nothing they can do to change it. If they assimilate, they are “sticking there noses where they don’t belong.” If they maintain their own culture, they are “clannish.” If they improve themselves, they are “push” If they work the land they are “primitive.”

For Americans, being Jewish is sort of a weekend activity. They are as different from the mainstream and an Italian family or an Iraqi cab driver.

Further Americans do not grasp the faux-science behind European anti-Sematism. Jews were not/are not hated for what they did. They were hated for what they were. No Jew could be innocent. No Jew could be different, since in Europe you are what you are.

Their very existence was a threat, they were a germ or chemical destroying the German (French, British, whatever) state.

Also keep in mind European states are ethnically-based. We have a France so people can wear berets and eat stinky cheese. There is a Britain for people who like warm beer and deep-fried Mars bars. Jews were different and so an affront to the state and the community.

In America, our state is dedicated to the pursuit of happiness. As long as Jews are having a good time, who cares? Americans like diversity, mostly we always have. Look at our acceptance of ethnic cookery as compared to (say) Italy 30 years ago.

So Europeans saw and to a startlingly wide extent still see people are archetypes. Americans tend to see people as people.

How’s that for a broad brush?

I think this is fairly ridiculous.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Ridiculous. Certainly. Please explain the long and unique European tradition of anti-Semitism and genocide against just about everyone with a “lisp or a pet name for God.”

Time to move to GD? The Pit?

[The_Great_Philosopher]

In fact it’s not just ridiculous, it’s actively racist towards Europeans and specific European states, so I’m going to go through it.

@Paul_in_Qatar

It is hard for a modern American to understand. Americans believe at a deep-down level that you are what you choose to be. I’m a teacher (and so sort of an intellectual). My Dad was a telephone man (and so a manual laborer). I see no connection between my father’s lot in life and mine.

Europeans, to generalize, feel a person is what he is. This one is a German, that one a member of the proletariat. You cannot change what you are.

Nowadays, this is not true in the slightest.

Consider the case of Madeline Albright as considered by my friend Stefan. Stefan was a Brit, but of Polish roots. Asked his nationality, he always answered Polish, although he had never been there. . So this friend of mine pointed out Albright was a “dirty Jew.” I reminded him she was raised in a Catholic family and “had accepted the Salvation that comes with His Blood.” Not to be turned aside by an appeal to his own faith, Stefan observed “A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.”

How charming.

I could tell the same sort of story about “this one American guy who hated Jews…”. It would offensive to suggest that would encapsulate American society as a whole, and the same is true for Europe.

So the Jews have always been a people apart in European thought. Nothing they can do to change it. If they assimilate, they are “sticking there noses where they don’t belong.” If they maintain their own culture, they are “clannish.” If they improve themselves, they are “push” If they work the land they are “primitive.”

None of this is true. At least nowadays it certainly isn’t. I don’t know what you’re basing it on.

Further Americans do not grasp the faux-science behind European anti-Sematism.

As opposed to the true science behind American anti-Semitism?

Also keep in mind European states are ethnically-based. We have a France so people can wear berets and eat stinky cheese. There is a Britain for people who like warm beer and deep-fried Mars bars. Jews were different and so an affront to the state and the community.

This is the point where I find it hard to believe you’re being serious. Are you being serious? Your second post certainly implied you are. I’d consider this statement racist and so mind-bogglingly ignorant I’m still holding out hope it’s a joke.

In America, our state is dedicated to the pursuit of happiness. As long as Jews are having a good time, who cares? Americans like diversity, mostly we always have.

You freely brush over the centuries of racism and the slave trade, as well as the undeniable elements of racism and anti-Semitism still present in the fringes of US culture. I’m not trying to take shots at the US here: all countries, including Europe, have always had and still have problems with racism and anti-Semitism, and the US is on the whole a very diverse country. But the picture you paint of America as the golden beacon of diversity to Europe’s degenerate pit of racism is preposterous.

So Europeans … to a startlingly wide extent still see people are archetypes.

Not true at all.

[griffin1977]

@Paul_in_Qatar

Ridiculous. Certainly. Please explain the long and unique European tradition of anti-Semitism and genocide against just about everyone with a “lisp or a pet name for God.”

There is nothing unique about it. There is a HUMAN tendency for persecution of anyone who looks, acts, and most especially worships a bit differently. The US suffers from that tendency just as much as the rest of the world (arguably more than some of it). Though it does have (in the form of the first amendment) some rather effective measures to stop them getting out of hand.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

(Forgive me, the below is in reply to The Great Philosopher; not to the post next above.)

Excellent points. None of them bear on the discussion of “pre-WWII Europeans” mentioned in the OP.

Excellent points indeed. Except for the strange claim that Europeans are a race of some sort. And of course your complete misunderstanding of the European pursuit of ethnic purity in their nations. And your lack of understanding of the unique nature of the American ideals.

Other than that, you are completely correct.

I would like to hear your reply to the original question, however.

[carnivorousplant]

@The_Great_Philosopher

You freely brush over the centuries of racism and the slave trade, .

What the heck does the slave trade have to do with antisemitism unless your are an ancient Egyptian?

I’m thinking that the reason there hasn’t been state sponsored antisemitism in the USA is that we haven’t had enough time, having only been around since the Articles of Confederation.

When was the last pogrom in Russia?

[samclem]

:::sigh:::

Moving this to Great Debates. Genral Questions takes it only so far.

samclem Moderator, General Questions

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@carnivorousplant

When was the last pogrom in Russia?

What time is now?

[pompeybear]

@The_Great_Philosopher

I think this is fairly ridiculous.

We’re getting a little off track here, but I can kinda see what Paul is saying. My dad served as an Exchange Officer in Northern England for a couple years when I was a kid. My dad was certainly considered a higher level of society than he would have been in the States. My mom still tells the story of how she was riding on a tour bus of some sort one day and the other women where “shocked” that an officer’s wife would ride on it. Apparently it was beneath her station or some such. Most of the officers my dad worked with were of somewhat prominent families. It seems that there (and I have no idea if Yorkshire is indicative of the entirety of Europe) it was very important what class you were born to. So I can see that it would be easier for them to lump a whole race of people together. That may be why racism flourished more in the southern states as historically a more rigid class structure existed there (if Gone With the Wind is to be taken as historically accurate ).

[carnivorousplant]

@samclem

:::sigh:::

Moving this to Great Debates. Genral Questions takes it only so far.

samclem Moderator, General Questions

Is this my fault? The “wrap fish in your newsletter” thing?
Yom Kippur is just over, and already I’m getting in trouble, dammit.

Thank goodness it isn’t the pit…Mama Plant doesn’t let me post there.

[athelas]

What are y’all’s opinions on Mormons? How much more tolerant are we now, really? It’s just that the labels have shifted and we’re blinded to our biases.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

I also hope my comments were not out of line. I am sincere in my thoughts on the subject.

[griffin1977]

@cpastu

We’re getting a little off track here, but I can kinda see what Paul is saying. My dad served as an Exchange Officer in Northern England for a couple years when I was a kid. My dad was certainly considered a higher level of society than he would have been in the States. My mom still tells the story of how she was riding on a tour bus of some sort one day and the other women where “shocked” that an officer’s wife would ride on it. Apparently it was beneath her station or some such. Most of the officers my dad worked with were of somewhat prominent families. It seems that there (and I have no idea if Yorkshire is indicative of the entirety of Europe) it was very important what class you were born to. So I can see that it would be easier for them to lump a whole race of people together. That may be why racism flourished more in the southern states as historically a more rigid class structure existed there (if Gone With the Wind is to be taken as historically accurate ).

That Europe is (or was) more class-riden than the US is probably undeniable. But that doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s more racist or anti-semitic because of it. The Southern states were more racist as they had a slave owning economy (and the tensions that followed it), not because of their class structure.

[Jackmannii]

@BlinkingDuck

According to the book ‘The War of the World’ http://www.amazon.com/War-World-Niall-Ferguson/dp/0143112392/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254164983&sr=8-3, he spent some time analyzing Jewish persecution. According to his findings, Jewish persecution was worse in countries where Jews were assimilating more and less bad in countries where they did not assimilate as much.

It gets confusing though. On the one hand them Jews are so pushy, always trying to get involved in things and be accepted where they’re not wanted. On the other hand they’re clannish and stick to themselves. Pretty darn tricky if you ask me. :dubious:

[pompeybear]

@griffin1977

That Europe is (or was) more class-riden than the US is probably undeniable. But that doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s more racist or anti-semitic because of it. The Southern states were more racist as they had a slave owning economy (and the tensions that followed it), not because of their class structure.

Well yes, of course. It just seems that a more rigid class structure based on bloodlines would make people more open to things like slavery/rabid racism in the first place. I don’t know that that’s true in fact or even a material matter, but it seems logical enough.

[carnivorousplant]

@griffin1977

The Southern states were more racist as they had a slave owning economy (and the tensions that followed it), not because of their class structure.

My standard comments that Maryland and Delaware were slave states and the 1st Arkansas Cavalry, CSA, fought the 1st Arkansas Cavalry, USA in Fayetteville, Arkansas where I got my MInSc at the University of Arkansas, in 1862.
But I digress.

I think that racism stems from the class structure and freeing slaves. The dumbest, poorest “white trash” could consider himself better than a slave until there were no more slaves, and that generated a great deal of hate.

[sleeping]

@astro

I was reading the Holocaust denial thread and the related Pit thread pitting the Holocaust denial thread OP, and it stuck me the there must have been a huge reservoir of simmering hate for the Jews in Europe among the general population to have enabled and allowed the massive scapegoating and subsequent horrors that occurred. Even going back to Shakespeare’s play “The Merchant of Venice” Jews were being dissed.

Other than being Jews my impression was that the Jews were generally no richer or poorer on average than the general population and occupied postions up and down the social strata. What was the main impetus of the raw hate directed toward the Jews?

Well, while anti-semitism has certainly existed for millenia, its forms have varied to the extent that it makes little sense to relate 20th century racialized prejudice to the 16th century ethnic stereotypes or religious blood libel.

Furthermore, the idea that some sort animosity toward Jews had become ingrained in Western culture (or German culture specifically, for that matter) has gained currency in recent times thanks to a few widely published but poorly researched history books that real Holocaust researchers do not take seriously.

And, for what it’s worth, the ferocity of anti-black racism in the 1920s was greater than that of the concurrent German anti-semitism; and pre-war Eastern European racism was greater than that of the Western Europeans.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

And yet did not result in genocide.

[astro]

@sleeping

Well, while anti-semitism has certainly existed for millenia, its forms have varied to the extent that it makes little sense to relate 20th century racialized prejudice to the 16th century ethnic stereotypes or religious blood libel.

Furthermore, the idea that some sort animosity toward Jews had become ingrained in Western culture (or German culture specifically, for that matter) has gained currency in recent times thanks to a few widely published but poorly researched history books that real Holocaust researchers do not take seriously.

So if it wasn’t “ingrained” what is the genesis of the attitudinal zeitgeist that allowed a large part of the German population to go along it the astounding proposal to ethnically cleanse an entire ethnicity from the German state?

[Paul_in_Qatar]

But here we see the difference. With the shameful exception of the American Indian, America never sought to be ethnically pure (at least not on the national level). The Europeans have tried dozens of times to cleanse the neighborhood of people not like them.