Yeah, but their support is based on the belief that exclusively Jewish control of Jerusalem is a precondition for the return of Christ, at which point it’s convert-or-be-damned for the jews. This is not likely to be very helpful when it comes to promoting fellow-feeling.
I’d like to make a book recommendation here: A Radical Line by Thai Jones (the son of the Weather Underground’s Jeff Jones). The story begins with his radical leftist Jewish great-grandmother hitting Ellis Island and steering her progeny through the Wobblies, War Resistance League, Socialist summer camp, etc.
I’m guessing Bill Kristol’s great grandmother left the old country with very different values.
Since this a post regarding a particular President, allow me to reply in kind.
The personal antipathy Nixon had to Jews is well known, and Wiki has a note by Haldeman from a meeting with N that all American Jews be excluded from talks with Israel.
However, it is also well known that without N’s airlift of munitions to Israel during the 1973 Yom Kippur War (at the time the largest such airlift in history), Israel would have been destroyed, or thrown a nuclear Hail Mary with no plan whatsoever.
Well, even assuming that this is true, which is arguable, that is, the airlift of materials certainly helped, but whether it was the crucial factor is arguable, it’s not clear how much credit Nixon deserves for it.
He started it only after the Soviets had threatened their own supply airlift to Egypt. What he would have done otherwise is unknown, but his move indicated little or nothing of his love for Israel.
As for well known, I’ve got to say that this is the first time in the almost 40 years that I’ve heard anyone bring it up in defense of Nixon. Is there really anybody at all in the country, let alone a large percentage of Jews, who thinks this cancels out his rampant anti-semitism?
Regardless of what they’re talking about or whether they agree with each other, notice that it’s a group of Jews hanging out together, not a multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-religious group of friends. You can’t really argue that Jews aren’t a generally exclusive group (for example, see things like Jdate. Most would never even consider dating/marrying a non-Jew). They even have a dedicated word meaning “anyone not Jewish” (goy/goyim). How is that not fostering an “us vs. them” mentality?
You’re really talking about Orthodox Jews there. Most American Jews, in my experience, are not really very “Jewish.” They certainly don’t care about marrying another Jew. And they’d never use the term Goyim in a serious way. They don’t keep Kosher or follow any of the Sabbath restrictions; they maybe go to synagogue twice a year, on Passover and Yom Kippur. Maybe. They don’t know how to read Hebrew; they don’t know anything about the Torah; most of them certainly don’t believe in God, because that would be uncool. The majority of American Jews are totally assimilated, Jewish in name only.
Oh I know. Christians would never do something like that. Neither would Muslims. Or atheists.
Exactly.
That’s not true of the Jews in my area. We’re a mixed bag, sure, but we’re Jewish. I reject the idea that you think Jews who don’t go to shul aren’t really “Jewish”. So even if 30-40 per cent of Jews actually belong to synagogue, I’m not sure that the rest of us are JINOs.
In the first place, the two highest Jewish holidays are Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Passover is a minor holiday. Further, practically all Jews (even non-observant Jews like myself) know much about the Torah, which, after all, is the Old Testament, and know quite a bit about the Talmud (which are rabbinical interpretations and expositions of the Torah). Saying most Jews are atheists is totally unsubstantiated. Perhaps many are agnostic (like me), but not atheistic. I don’t know what “uncool” has to do with one’s belief.
That’s so not true. I can speak for my experience and for most of the Jewish kids I grew up with and for the Jewish families I know now.
Don’t conflate not being separate (like many Othrodox are), being assimilated and being Jewish in name only. These are three different ideas. I may not keep kosher, or observe the Sabbath, but there is a hell of a lot more that I do that goes beyond what you described. Being assimilated these days does not mean giving up what makes you apart. I can be assimilated (not separate) and yet allow my self to be different and at times outside the mainstream culture. I do not observe the rigorous interpretation of Jewish law the Orthodoxy do, but that does not mean I’m a “Yom Kippur (not Passover) and Rosh Hashana” Jew. I may be an atheist, like many of my Jewish friends (including the Hazan at my synagogue!), but that doesn’t mean I’m not knowladgeable about Torah, or feel that Judaism has something to offer me in terms of an ethical and historical framework for my life.
I may have ended up not marrying a Jewish person, but the person I married knew that this was a Jewish home, my kids had this identity and no other religions were being celebrated here. He was fine with that and that’s what we are doing. I’m not going to list, item by item, all the things we do to be more than Jews in name only. Each Jewish family I know figures it out for themselves, so my list is irrelevant. But your assertion is mistaken, AT.
I thnk this thread would benefit from being in the Elections forum, rather than GQ.
Moved.
samclem, Moderator
I’ve found recently that there are many (many!) Jews who are voting Republican, because they think the Republican party is somehow more supportive of Israel. I personally think it’s hooey.
Yep, I’ve heard and read the sentiment, even from colleagues, that “he may be a despicable SOB, but he supports Israel so I’m voting for him.”
It’s sad, really, that some Jews will so eagerly vote for a politician whose only redeeming quality is support for Israel, even though this should be mitigated by the fact that the foundation for the politician’s support of Israel probably comes from his belief, and the belief of his Christian constituents, that doing so sets the scenario for the return of Jesus, the end of days, and the assimilation and ultimate annihilation of the Jews.
Yeah, there were many (many!) Jews voting Republican last election, too, because the Democrats abandoned them by nominating this crypto-muslim, Israel-hating, communazi. Or at least they were when they talked to the right-wing pundits on the topic.
Isn’t that the same as supporting any other single-issue candidate? 2nd Amendment, pro- or anti-choice, etc?
ETA or simply because they’ve got a (D) or (R) next to their name?
Except of course, Obama pulled more of the Jewish vote then Kerry, and as much as Al Gore (who had Lieberman on his ticket who I doubt anyone has ever accused of being insufficiently pro-Israel).
That was sort of my point in the original thread. We hear this narrative every cycle, that the Jews are abandoning the Dem over Israel. It never materializes. I don’t see any reason it’ll be different this year.
2008 was probably a high water mark for Obama as far as getting votes is concerned, so I’m sure he’ll lose some share of the Jewish votes for the same reasons he’ll lose votes in every cohort. But he’ll still do better then 70% and the Jewish vote will still remain reliably Democratic.
Republicans may believe this will be a big help to them in 2012, but there’s limited evidence to date that this will happen. A recent New York Times article found Obama’s rating among Jewish voters has consistently been considerably higher than among voters in general, and that while some disillusionment with him has set in, it hasn’t been more pronounced among Jews than with Americans in general.
Getting back to traditional involvement in civil rights advocacy, American Jews gravitating towards the Democratic Party have seen it as an instrument for social justice, working towards legislation that while often aimed primarily towards inequities affecting black Americans, benefits all of us. Inter-minority resentments have not significantly altered this commitment.
Obviously, not everyone has the same perception of an oppressed past in common and shared future.
Yeah, that was kind of my point, with the missing sarcasm tag.
The Republicans really, really want the Jewish vote to defect from the Democrats, and good politicking means trying to make this happen by talking like it’s already happening.
I think those Jews already voted Republican before, honestly. Maybe a small per cent (and in some areas, is that enough?). Some more religious Jews are typically on the fence and can’t be put in one box or the other.
I see more Jews voting Republican because (ironically) their status is higher and they are rejecting what I think Dopers have been referring to as ‘class warfare’. To me, this is also a group who is more likely to sway back and forth, depending on the candidate.
For me, Obama has disappointed me in two ways. One is Israel. And no, it’s not because I don’t think Palestinians shouldn’t be able to have a state and it isn’t because I support the settlements (east Jlem nonwithstanding). It’s because his “Do as I say because I’m right!” meme isn’t working. I’m also surprised as his apparent lack of understanding about the emotions tied up in the situation. Does he really lack diplomacy skills?
The second half is his domestic policy. It’s too conservative. I feel like GW has been in office for the last three years.
So for me, am I going to vote Republican? No. I mean, barring some awful act in the White House - no. But am I maybe more likely to stay home? I’ve always voted (even worked on a Presidential campaign once, so I get the importance), but I’m tired of having my vote taken for granted. In 2004, I held my nose and voted for Kerry. In 2008, I cast an unhappy vote for Obama. In 2012, I can see myself shrugging it off if the weather gets bad.
The things I’m saying here are antecdotal, yes, but they seem pretty reflective of Jewish opinion.
The only people I know where Israel is their single issue are the extremely conservative or Israelis themselves. But maybe a lot of little things will add up and tip the edge.
**
All that being said, if it does happen, I doubt the Dems would lose the Jewish vote forever.Jews aren’t single-issue voteres. ** Look at polls -they may disapprove of Obama, but they’re voting for him anyway.
Are Republicans more supportive of Israel? A little bit. But it doesn’t mean the Dems are anti-Israel.
I do think Jews may be less likely to vote straight ticket, though.
I have to admit curiosity as to how many candidates on ether side don’t support Israel. Because I’ve never heard of anyone capaigning on the idea of ending the US commitment to Israel. It seems more a choice of candidates who support Israel in defense of her borders vs. candidates who imply we should join with Israel in wiping out the Arabs and Muslims from the face of the earth – though this latter is probably overstating their position.