Why do Americans dislike France?

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

@Spavined_Gelding

In 1914 all they could provide was a puny six or seven long service regular division that were pretty well ground to powder before the innocents who were massacred at the Somme were able to take the field… In the mean time, all through the 19th Century the British made their reputation by fighting ill-armed and ill-organized and ill-trained native levies.

Presumably you’re forgetting the British blockade on German ports, initiated in 1914? As well as the Battle of the Falkland Islands and various other sea battles? It’s more than a little disingenuous to claim all Britain could drum up was a puny division, when Britain’s strength lay in her navy, and she never really gave a shit about what happened on the continent, as long as nobody was dominating. If continental armies could be persuaded into fighting wars on Britain’s behalf, more fool them!

There are two exception to the 19th Century generality – the Crimea and the Boer Wars. The Crimea was won because the British were facing an adversary as inept as the British and because the French carried the greater part of the fight. The Charge of the Light Brigade might be good poetry but it was very bad war making.

As you’d expect from a war drummed up by the French over a dispute in the Holy Land, no?

[Tamerlane]

@Spavined_Gelding

As for carping about French military power, or pretense to it, from the Middle Ages through WWI France was the dominant European power - which means it was the dominant world power.

@Broadswordcallingdannyboy

The UK was the dominant European and World military power from the Napoleonic Wars (or earlier) until the First World War.

@Spavined_Gelding

This is hardly persuasive of the idea that Great Britain was the (or even a) dominant 19th Century military world power.

MHO.

France was clearly the dominant continental European power in the period of ~1204-1356, 1435-1525, 1640-1812, 1856-1871. When it wasn’t dominant as I’m defining it ( very loosely ), it might still rank as a marginal #1. What is true is that up until at least the 19th century it always at least had the potential for regional superpower status based on population and productivity at a time when land revenues were the dominant form of income.

Great Britain is an odd case, but I’d agree that they were probably a greater world power based on naval dominance from about the end of the Napoleonic Wars until WW II. Which didn’t mean it could toe-to-toe by itself with France on the mainland and win. It couldn’t - France always had a much stronger army. It just meant it could stalemate France overseas and concentrate against it more efficiently in select areas at a time when Europe was no longer the sole theatre of power politics. But France was certainly a Great Power throughout that same period and the comparison is slightly apples to oranges in some respects - each was to some extent strong in places the other was not.

[Spavined_Gelding]

@Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party

As you’d expect from a war drummed up by the French over a dispute in the Holy Land, no?

No is the correct answer. While the dispute over the holy sites in Palestine (with Russia acting as the protector of the rights of the Greek Orthodox Church and the Turks caught in the middle) was the pretext for the war, the real issue was Russian access to the Mediterranean from its naval base at Sebastopol in the Crimea. Great Britain, as noted the dominant naval power, could not tolerate a Russian presence in what GB regarded as its private pond. That after all is what the Battle of the Nile was about.

While France had an interest in keeping Russia out of the Mediterranean its principal concern was the aggrandizement of its own power position in the wake of the temporary peace following the final fall of the French Empire in 1815. Napoleon III’s next step would be to intervene in the wars of Italian Unification where it effectively softened up the Austrian Empire and set it up to be pretty well taken off the European Super Power list by Prussia in 1866. That left Germany and France to duke it out in 1870 and then again in 1914 for the championship .

[Musicat]

I think US feeling vs. French has flip-flopped in recent years.

Ca. 2003, there was a Veteran’s Day ceremony locally where the French were welcomed and there was a joint presentation regarding WW2.

Not long after, the French refused to go along with Bush’s stupid, imperialist and inhumane policies regarding Iraq. This made some US citizens (“My country and George Bush, right or wrong!”) offended by the lack of French support and this caused a severe backlash.

I doubt if the same Vet’s Day ceremony would be performed now.

[clairobscur]

@FallenAngel

Hate:
Socialism and trade unionization taken to extreme and silly levels.

France has one of the lowest rate of unionization in Europe (maybe even the lowest in the EU, but I don’t remember for sure). I will add that I find this very unfortunate.

Intergovernmental relations and global power that far outweighs its deserved influence.

Well, since I’m responding to your post, I might as well responding to this too : France has whatever influence, foreign grelations and power it has. Stating that it’s “undeserved” is completely meaningless.

And as a more general comment regarding france’s importance, and at the risk of being perceived as an arrogant frenchman : By comparison with the USA, France is a dwarf. But remove the US from the equation, and you won’t find many countries with a similarily large GDP, military, etc…

France isn’t pretending to has power and influence, it doesn’t have significant “intergovernmental relations and global power” because other countries want to be nice despite it being “undeserved”. It has whatever power and influence it can afford, like any other country. Much less than the USA but much more than the overwhelming majority of nations on the planet.

France is roughly in the same position as the UK : almost exactly the same population, about the same GDP depending on the year, equivalent military, etc… And I don’t see people going around telling how the UK “doesn’t deserve” its influence. France has power and/or influence because…well because it has power and influence. Not because a philosopher member of the Academie Francaise and wearing a beret has stated it should.

And as for your (and others’) comments about too much welfare, ludicrously short work hours, socialism or whatnot… Am I living in a third world country? Looking around…hmmm…no… We seem to be doing quite fine. Thanks for the concern, though. And make sure to enjoy spending more time working than me.

Now, I’m going to leave it at that because I’m out to buy cheese (Seriously. I dispute being a monkey, I couldn’t tell about surrendering, but I’m most certainly a cheese-eater and proud of it)

[Kobal2]

@clairobscur

France has power and/or influence because…well because it has power and influence. Not because a philosopher member of the Academie Francaise and wearing a beret has stated it should.

Although to be fair, they quite often do

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Musicat

I think US feeling vs. French has flip-flopped in recent years.

Ca. 2003, there was a Veteran’s Day ceremony locally where the French were welcomed and there was a joint presentation regarding WW2.

I remember in the run-up to the Iraq invasion (late 2002, early 2003) driving by a roadside protest where people were holding banners that read “Nuke Paris, then Baghdad.” To this day I’m still :eek:. What the fuck? These people are too dumb to distinguish a worldwide existential threat from a minor international snub?

Now that I think back, there was a brief outbreak of anti-French sentiment in the 80’s when the US bombed Libya, with France and Space denying the use of their airspace for the mission from Germany.

It seems that gallophobia is always latent in the American psyche, ever a reliable tool when politicians need to deflect attention away from the stupidity of American foreign policy.

[Kobal2]

@Cosmic Relief

I remember in the run-up to the Iraq invasion (late 2002, early 2003) driving by a roadside protest where people were holding banners that read “Nuke Paris, then Baghdad.” To this day I’m still :eek:. What the fuck? These people are too dumb to distinguish a worldwide existential threat from a minor international snub?

Well, whoever wasn’t with you was against you, back then. France was just the key player in L’Axe du Fromage.

Now that I think back, there was a brief outbreak of anti-French sentiment in the 80’s when the US bombed Libya, with France and Space denying the use of their airspace for the mission from Germany.

It seems that gallophobia is always latent in the American psyche, ever a reliable tool when politicians need to deflect attention away from the stupidity of American foreign policy.

Well, yes and no. I think the rabid (but thankfully, shortlived) hatred borne of our unwillingness to join the Coalition of the Willing is distinct from the more generic “let’s make fun of the silly French/I got a French joke” aspect. The latter is somewhat light hearted and accepted or tolerated by most, while the former was 1) actively drummed up through propaganda and 2) widely ridiculed even within the US.

But Bush’s cronies didn’t come up with the silly stereotypes, they merely exploited them to whip the morons into a frothing frenzy. The stereotypes themselves had been there for a long long time…

With that said, now that I think about it, I suppose every culture has stereotypes regarding every *other *culture they’re familiar with. And in the case of European nations, a history of violence with. Justified, of course. They’re damn dirty foreigners, for one. Repeat offenders at that.

[guizot]

@jjimm

Factor #6: it was a right-wing meme, based on righteous opposition against the Iraq war, but bolstered by the spurious reasoning shagnasty highlights, that flourished in the American mind.

It’s not so much a meme as political rhetoric, for the reasons you mentioned. The French don’t always kow tow to U.S. foreign policy, so U.S. politicians like to use France as a whipping boy.

They forget that the French navy was crucial to the colonies’ success against the British in the American war for independence, or that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France. And then there was the ludicrous motion on the floor of the House to change the name of French fries in its cafeteria to “freedom fries” when France opposed invading Iraq.

The typical American who travels through Europe will almost always go through France, or Paris at least. Everyone wants to go up the Eiffel Tower and see the Mona Lisa and the Champs Elysee and Notre Dame.

And most French, with any knowledge of history, don’t dislike Americans, considering the invasion of Normandie. What they don’t like is loud and rude tourists who expect everyone to speak English and go into a cafe to order a Big Mac.

The only Americans who dislike France are those who fall for political trickery or who go there and expect it to be exactly like Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[clairobscur]

@Cosmic Relief

Now that I think back, there was a brief outbreak of anti-French sentiment in the 80’s when the US bombed Libya, with France and Space denying the use of their airspace for the mission from Germany.

Note two interesting points about this particular incident :

-Spain also denied use of its airspace (I think the bombers were coming from the UK, not Germany), which is rarely mentionned.

-The french army and airforce was at this time involved in the long-lasting Chad war, hence confronting Lybia much more directly than the USA and their random bombing mission. This also is (and as far as I can tell was at the time) completely ignored, and instead you get comments about coward french who were afraid to piss off Lybia.

[Fish]

To be honest, I think most Americans make fun of the French because they see people on TV making fun of the French, and it makes them feel a) important and b) educated about international affairs. Very few roles are written in movies with the French in mind that are not comic relief; it’s nowhere near the exposure American audiences get with the British. (That would make an interesting thread: how are countries portrayed in the media where each of you come from?)

I can’t think of any good reason to make fun of France. Lots of bad reasons, though.

[clairobscur]

When I think about it (Chad war and the American air raid in Lybia), there might have at this time too some kind of political motive for the US administration to encourage a french-bashing operation.

I vaguely remember that at the time the USA was pressuring France to commit more forces in Chad, or to support a Chadian offensive into Lybian territory proper, or something to this effect. But since it was quite a long time ago, my memory is very blurry and I don’t know if this coincidated with the American raid, or rather happened before or after.

Anyway, France would have had at the time more reasons to complain about a cowardly lack of American involvment re Lybia than the other way around ;). And more seriously, had good reasons to think that the USA posturing with an air raid in this context wasn’t exactly an helpful move (Again, I vaguely remember that it happened towards the end of the Chad war, and that there were talks to put an end to the conflict, but my memory is too blury to tell if this coincidated with the American raid).

[clairobscur]

Sorry to go on on this issue but I want to share my thoughts : thinking about it a little bit more, it seems to me that a French support to the American raid, potentially agravating the hostily between Lybia and France could possibly have led to an escalation in Chad (say, for instance, by causing a Lybian reprisal attack targeting conveniently available French forces ) which is precisely what the USA wished.
Random thoughts, quite a hijack of the thread, and I’m not going to investigate the political manoeuvering at the time, but still, it doesn’t seem unconceivable that the various actors might have had things like that in mind at the time.

[TheVioletCreep]

I blame ignorance and stupidity.

[Zoe]

The Parisiens were absolutely lovely to me in April of 2004. I was there for almost two weeks.

[astorian]

It’s also worth noting that the French are not NEARLY so different from Americans as French elites pretend (or American elites hope).

Lest we forget, while the best of French cuisine truly is wonderful, McDonald’s does HUGE business in France.

And while the best of French cinema is truly brilliant, cheesy American action movies do blockbuster business in France, as they do around the world. I know some people want to think French teenagers are flocking to Eric Rohmer or Jean-Luc Godard festivals, but they’re not. They’re watching the same crap their American brethren are.

[GusNSpot]

I dislike them due to my personal experiences. My misconceptions, hearsay, bad history books and unsupported war stories.

I don’t need no stinkin facts… We are talking ‘hate’ here. ::: sheesh :::

[guizot]

@GusNSpot

I dislike them due to my personal experiences.

Could you elaborate on these personal experiences?

[Kobal2]

@astorian

Lest we forget, while the best of French cuisine truly is wonderful, McDonald’s does HUGE business in France.

And while the best of French cinema is truly brilliant, cheesy American action movies do blockbuster business in France, as they do around the world. I know some people want to think French teenagers are flocking to Eric Rohmer or Jean-Luc Godard festivals, but they’re not. They’re watching the same crap their American brethren are.

Of course, but CLEARLY the Americans are to blame for that, can’t you see ?

[Siam_Sam]

@astorian

It’s also worth noting that the French are not NEARLY so different from Americans as French elites pretend …

That’s so true. The French are in fact almost human.