Why do Canada and Australia have so few people?

Heh. Really, you must read up some on geography and climatology, as others have pointed out. Or just go for a car ride through Northern Ontario, on one of the few roads that head up north. :wink:

Let’s put it this way: when I was visiting my brother in England, I visited in London: it is at 51.50 north. That same latitude would have you north of southern James Bay in Ontario/Nunavut (which is at 51.20 north). Yet James Bay is the realm of polar bears and tundra. I noticed a distinct lack of polar bears or tundra in London.

The city I live in -Toronto - lies far, far to the south of London - at 43.42 N. Yet we get -35 C temperatures in the winter here sometimes. That rarely happens in London.

http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/news-room/scientists-and-explorers-blog/journey-southern-hudson-bay-polar-bears

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_latitude

I lived in the Canadian High Arctic for five years, and when I was there (15 years ago) the entire population of the NWT and Nunavut could fit into the SkyDome, if you used floor seating. It was about 54,000 at the time and so huge that if you were driving along the Dempster and you saw a sign saying ‘Edmonton 1,100km’ you’d think to yourself “Almost there.” The population is just insignificant, a rounding error.

I think you have no real notion of the kind of distances involved when you are talking about worthless Canadian tundra versus land near Toronto … :smiley:

Ok, so if I accept all your points that Crown land is a red herring, the end result remains that any Canadian who aspires to a modern middle-class western lifestyle has an extremely short list of options that (from eyeballing the map) look like they could all fit into the state of Pennsylvania. Sounds like Canada isn’t nearly as “big” as we think it is. And any reasonably ambitious young people in small towns are pretty much forced at gunpoint to leave their communities and compete with everyone else in one of the few metro areas (which are replete with wealthy foreign real estate investors, of course.) Doesn’t that seem a bit dysfunctional and how do we improve things if reforming crown land is not the issue? I don’t really care if people live in the north or not, I just think that surely we could use a few more options somewhere in the country.

And I’m just wondering why it is that Minnesota and Wisconsin are perfectly functional states with a good standard of living, while just over the border we have what sounds like an inhospitable wasteland with barely functional infrastructure?

One question to that: what the hell?

There’s a Mexico/wall/Trump joke here somewhere :slight_smile:

“forced at gunpoint” was a metaphor of course, I was referring to economic pressure.

“Land that Canadians don’t want” sounds a bit like “Jobs that Americans won’t do”, maybe that’s a start.:smiley:

I think the issues go far beyond that. :smiley:

The problem here is that you, and others, appear to be simply unable to conceptualize the vastness of the distances under discussion, and the issues of climate and geography that make Canada, Canada.

There are reasons the Canadian population is one-tenth than that of the US, and those reasons do not include, in any significant way, government policy.

Put it this way: actually travel through the land under discussion, preferably in winter as well as in summer. Much that you find mysterious will, very quickly, become more obvious. :wink:

ISTM The issue LC is missing is that land today is not valued the way land was 100 years ago.

In the frontier and homesteading eras of Canada and the US the critical measures of merit (not cost or price; merit) was whether the land was farmable and to a much lesser degree whether it had acceptable connections to the existing or soon-to-be delivered transportation. Adequate soil, adequate water, long enough growing season was primary with proximity to navigable rivers, existing wagon trails, etc. a distant 15th on the list of factors to evaluate.

In the modern world the main things that determine merit (again not cost or price; merit) is proximity to existing urban centers and to a much lesser degree flatness. You can build suburbia or light industry on much hillier ground than you can subsistence farm with a mule or primitive tractor.

The idea of “the government” plunking down a fresh crossroads in central Alabama or central Manitoba and expecting thereby to seed another Altanta or Calgary is ludicrous. All the free land in the world won’t offset the incremental cost to install all the infrastructure of a modern city. And by “infrastructure” I don’t just mean power & running water & phones & roads.

The true infrastructure of a city is all the stuff in the Yellow pages. All those businesses making & selling all that stuff. All those people working for wages. And all those people buying the stuff all the other folks are producing. THAT is the value-add of Toronto or Atlanta over Bumfuck MB or AL.

There certainly have been examples of artificial cities created in Nowheresville by government fiat. Canberra Australia and Brasilia Brazil come to mind. In both cases the government, for completely non-economic reasons, decided to create a city in the wilderness. They then subsidized tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people living and working there until the natural commercial infrastructure filled in around the government one. 20-30 years later there was a little commercial. 50-75 years later there was more. Even today at this late date, if those goverments chose to move to a new town, or to a new wilderness, they’d instantly impoverish those cities & create a fresh Detroit over the next 10 years.
My bottom line: The world has changed since the 1800s. Wishing for new big cities in the prairie is silly. It’s as anachronistic as the current thread pining for transcontinental passenger zeppelin service.

The future is the current cities expanding ever outward and to some degree upward when terrain makes “up” cheaper than “out.”
Notice I haven’t said anything about price. Yet.

When most of a land parcel’s *merit *is its proximity to the rest of civilization, what do you suppose that causes for prices? Price will be an inverse exponential of distance from major downtowns. Something 10x farther away will be worth 1/100th the price.

Releasing all the government land 500 miles from a major city will have zero effect on the prices at 40, 50, 100, and 150 miles from that city. Because the price vs. distance decay function is exponential, not linear.

If indeed there is significant buildable government land 5 or 10 or 20 miles from the current suburban frontier, releasing *that *land *would *have an immediate effect on local prices.

Funny enough there is such a city here in North America. Las Vegas in Nevada. It’s an island of privately owned land surrounded on all sides by government land. Between the 1970s and 2008 the conurbation has expanded almost entirely to the borders of available land. Once the place finishes digging out from the 2008 recession we’ll see how much their inability to grow out will result in either price spikes, building up, or economic stagnation.

Believe me, that was not the only thing I was “what the hell” ing.

If you tried to build a Brasilia on the Canadian tundra, getting people to move there would require more than mere subsidies. :wink: It is extremely harsh in every conceivable way.

So you’re basically agreeing with the concept that only a tiny part of Canada is “wanted”, and everyone happily crams into a few metro areas (and the list is even smaller if you’re not culturally French).

So I was positing that’s an artificial state of affairs caused by high crown land ownership, lack of government infrastructure and the resulting land prices everywhere else. I don’t care if the north stays empty or if there are vast empty spaces in between, but I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that Canada would be served well with a slightly more balanced population pattern.

Why is it that mountainous Colorado / Washington, or similarly inhospitable Minnesota / Wisconsin, etc. each have more people living there than the whole of Alberta? (or BC?)

Bolding added, and I completely agree. Vancouver is the #3 metro area in all of Canada and here’s the crown land map - does that really pass the straight face test?

I’m not proposing that new places should be built from scratch in random locations - just trying to make a point that Canada should be able to support more people.

That’s an interesting map. But without seeing it blown up to where current urban+suburban Vancouver covers about 1/3rd to 1/2 the total map area I can’t say much more. Especially if the closer-scale map doesn’t include topography.

Immediately outside Las Vegas within the adjacent government lands there are flat dry lakebeds and tall snow-capped mountains. The lake beds are ideal suburbia once you pipe in water for the people. The mountains … not so much.

A look at Bing maps shows me the current Vancouver suburbia abuts up to pretty harsh terrain in many areas.

Late add:

Also somebody waay up-thread said one way to analyze the situation is as if there was no Canada-US border. If we see big differences across the border we’d be able to implicate government policy, at least to the degree Canadian & US policies were/are different. If we see no differences then other factors must predominate.

Looking at the Vancouver suburban areas on the US side of the border we see the same thing as on the Canada side. The river delta / former glacial moraine is full of houses, there’s some construction in the foothills, and the high terrain is uninhabited and unfarmed.

Which says to me the problem is primarily terrain and only secondarily, if at all, government land ownership.

The area isn’t “tiny”. It is only small in relation to the size of the country, which is enormous and consists mostly of wholly uninhabitable land.

You are simply wrong on the facts. The government did not make much of Canada uninhabitable, it found it that way.

This would have to be imposed from the top down, and even so, would likely not work. You can’t force people to live on the tundra and like it - not in a free society, anyway.

Those states simply aren’t “similarly inhospitable” to BC/Alberta, taken as a whole. Once again, climate and geography.

I recommend you examine the links I posted upthread. The link in Canada between population density and climatic/geographic zone is remarkable.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/16-201-x/2009000/t071-eng.htm

The highest is “Mixed Wood Plains”; it has a population density of 15,522.4 per 100 KM square (2006).

The lowest is “Taiga Cordillera”; it has a population density of 0.2 per 100 KM square (2006).

Others range between.

Point is that this was not achieved by government fiat, but by the climatic/geographic conditions; and it could not easily be altered by government fiat, either.
Compare with BC:

It is largely “Montaine cordillera”: average pop. density of 184 per 100 KM square (2006). Compare, again, with mixed woods: 15,500 (in Canada).

Notice of little of this there is in Canada.

Notice the difference?

I don’t think anyone disagrees with this as an aspirational goal - the problem comes in where exactly are you putting these people and why are they staying there?

As has been pointed out, topography doesn’t agree with you. Take a look at this topographical map of the Pacific NW - do you notice the tiny amount of available flat land in the Fraser River valley where Vancouver is, compared to the vastly larger amount available south of the border? Using the Google Map measuring distance tool, there’s about 1100 sq mi of flat land in that valley north of the border. There is roughly 2.5x that area just going from Bellingham to Olympia. It’s Crown land surrounding Vancouver because it’s 5000 ft high mountains, not the greedy government saying “hands off”. Like, this is what you see on the drive in to Vancouver. How, pray tell, are you building on that?

Or OK, let’s look at Colorado vs Alberta. 70% of Colorado’s population lives in either the Denver/Boulder and Colorado Springs metro areas, and that’s a 60/10 division, at that. The rest of it is too difficult to build on, or dotted with small farming communities.

Alberta has two 1M population centers - both expanding unencumbered either by Crown land or otherwise and at rapid paces - plus a handful of smaller cities that are also growing quite rapidly, spread out over the breadth of the province - in locations, one would note, that are rather flat to build on. Climate holds things back to some degree, as no one’s really angling to live in Whitecourt or High Level without a compelling reason to do so, but were people to decide to move there, there are houses to move in to. The sociological, economic and climatological reasons why Alberta is less densely populated than Colorado are vast, but it sure isn’t because Alberta can’t get land to build houses on.

Sure, but the only real way to test this is by putting the land on the market. Heck, most of Scotland is VERY rough terrain but privately owned. This blog post I linked to earlier indicated that crown land in that area of BC is typically licensed for use by corporations, which doesn’t exactly help ordinary families.

The blog is about people wanting to ‘homestead’ and grow organic stuff with their own hands (‘permaculture’). How relevant do you think this likely to be to “ordinary families”?