Why do Conservatives think the government is any worse than corporations?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Conservatives say it all the time like a mantra. Ben Shapiro regularly trashes the ability of the government to do anything. I read redstate.com because it’s Conservative but hates Trump (and thus is somewhat interesting), and I see it all the time on there too.

The short answer is as follows:

  1. They’re for “small government” (not really, but that’s the brand), so they have to denigrate government.

  2. They worship the market, and thus corporations are OK because there is a mechanism to set them straight (the market), and there isn’t one for government.

  3. A lot of these guys have been politicians or academics or media personalities or whatever their whole lives and haven’t actually worked for a corporation (ironic that some of them have been in government for their whole careers but speak ill of government).

Note that Conservatives rarely say, “Government is terrible but corporations are great!” I am simply pointing out that they fail to see what’s really fucking obvious to anyone with common sense:

All human organizations suck, from government to corporations to not-for-profits. It’s all a cesspool of fucked-up incentive systems, gaming for self-interest, rent-seeking behavior, and mind-numbing propaganda to whitewash the aforementioned things. “Government” is just a circle inside the big circle of the Venn diagram, dickheads.

And if you’ve ever worked for a corporation, you know what I mean. Everything Conservatives say about the government can and should be said here. There is insane waste, corruption, fraud, massive douchebags, and assholes–

Oh, and all the INCOMPETENCE you could ever wish for. I think Conservatives fantasize that corporations have their flaws, sure, but market forces make them competent. Not so. And there are so many flaws in market forces that terrible companies can last for a long time and create a lot of chaos as they die.

Case in point: Sears. That company, once arguably excellent, has been dying a slow death since the early 1980s. Since it gave up on its catalog in the early 90s (when it could likely have been Amazon instead of Amazon, had it had any vision whatsoever), it has been positively obsolete, a joke. But the trouble is that a big company like that can’t just liquidate–that’s too big a loss to its shareholders, who will fight for it to stay alive as long as possible, spending (i.e., wasting) zillions of dollars in the process and creating distortions in the very market that was supposed to bring death to the weak.

Another potential case: Apple has arguably been a competent and excellent company for the past 20 years, but it now sits on so much cash that, no matter how shitty it got now and how poorly it performed in terms of innovation, it would be able to survive for another 30 years easily. Sears was never that flush, and look how it’s done in the zombie game. (I’m not saying that Apple will go this route; I’m just saying that IF it did, nothing could stop it from making a big mess for a long time.)

So that’s my speech. Pretty much nothing in Conservative philosophy about how government and the economy works has any value at this point in time, and this is just one other example of that. Thoughts?

2

Sears’ shareholders sold their company to Kmart over a decade ago.

3

Many conservatives believe Government is a giant inefficient bureaucracy that wastes much of the money they are given which comes from the taxes of hardworking Americans. Corporations, while not perfect, only survive by being efficient and nobody has every been taxed by a corporation.

4

What dolphinboy said. There isn’t as much of a disincentive for government to be wasteful. Sure, plenty of corporations and businesses are wasteful, but they suffer the natural consequences of being wasteful - less profits, less efficiency, etc. Whereas government can be wasteful and not feel as bad about it, or suffer much for doing so.

If a business takes a intolerably long time to fulfill a customer’s order, it will suffer consequences - get bad Yelp reviews, word will spread, people will take their business elsewhere, etc. If a government allows red tape to muddle up someone’s applications or paperwork for months, so what?

5

Like any other large organization, it’s going to have pockets of excellence and slop.

No, they survive by being solvent, which can involve anything from being efficient to being propped up with debt.

I think the credit card companies and credit score bureaus definitely act as a kind of secondary government engaging in taxation and income redistribution. They charge retailers a fee to use the service and then give cash back and other rewards to people who use the cards (i.e., people with better credit scores). It’s actually taxation and redistribution to the wealthy.

6

Yes, but this has no effect on my argument but rather demonstrates the kind of mergers and restructurings and other BS that companies will do to survive that adds no value to the market whatsoever.

7

I agree that government often is wasteful. The disincentive is elections and the fear of new people coming in and tearing things up unless people do a good job. Or having your budget cut or your department eliminated, etc. Positive incentives include political ambition: someone wanting to make their mark and use that success as leverage in getting a better position, in a political campaign, etc.

In any case, I do see excellence in government all the time. I also see shit. It depends.

To a certain extent, this is of course true. I think small companies are under the gun a lot of the time (which doesn’t mean they are well run–most are not) and get kicked in the dirt when they fail.

Above a certain size, however, there is a lot of slush in the system. Keep in mind that execs are looking out for No. 1–themselves–at all times. They create their own fiefdoms, spend a lot of money on themselves and their mini empires, and create a lot of expenses (travel, events, dinners, etc.) because they are BSDs and deserve the perqs. And the market doesn’t necessarily care, probably doesn’t, so long as the company is profitable.

Let me give an example. I worked for a publicly traded company in Japan that was, as these often go, still run by the founding family as their personal playground. I liked the company and its products and the ordinary employees were cool people, but the top management was this bunch of toxic asshole men. They treated people like shit, but they had spent literally like $10 million equivalent in a “values” program that clearly wasn’t having an effect, at least not at the top. Total nonsense (at least at that level of spending) and total waste. Most of middle management in that company were in meaningless meetings all day long and adding zero value. My boss was one of the biggest jackasses I’ve ever met, and he would do absolutely nothing of value in the company. He just held a ton of meetings and strategic sessions that did nothing, since another fief (controlled by the other brother) actually ran things. A huge joke.

But the company’s products were good, and the company was profitable, so there was no “market force” to make this company’s “leaders” change their ways. Had the company eliminated all this waste and toxicity, the company probably could have made, who knows, 5-10% more profit. But no one outside the company would be aware of this.

You’ve heard of Comcast, haven’t you?!

8

So say I don’t like something about Corporation X. I vote with my dollars and don’t do business with them, buy their products, etc…

Now suppose I don’t like something about government. I don’t reasonably have the same options to avoid doing business with government. I can vote and lobby for change, but meanwhile I still have to pay my taxes, register my car, get building permits, and a multitude of other things I have to do with or through government.

It is this compelled association that drives a harder criticism of government. And as a government employee (in a 911 center) it was drilled into me during training that the public has a reasonable expectation that we do our jobs well. This is not like that episode of the Simpsons where dialing 912 will get you better service from a different call center. We don’t have competition so we better give our best every single day.

9

I cited the different incentive system issue in the OP, but people keep citing it. OK…

That’s true. But depending on the task, the incentive systems the government uses can be superior to the profit motive. There should be a division between the government and the private sector with different incentive systems applying.

Sure. But my point was that Conservatives trash government without recognizing that it’s hard to attain excellence in ALL organizations.

Right. And the profit motive would be a shitty incentive system for that call center.

10

It exposes the lack of research you put into your thesis.

11

First and foremost, it almost always comes down to campaign contributions. Corporate donors don’t like the government doing things they think they could do (or shouldn’t be done at all).

While most people generally agree it’s up do the government to do those things that private companies can’t really do. E.g., run police departments. There’s a lot of maybe/maybe not stuff. E.g., roads. Why not let private companies privatize (certain) roads and make money off of tolls? Esp. when these companies can donate to campaigns and the government can’t.

An example: The National Weather Service. AccuWeather and friends are not at all happy, esp. given the Internet, with the US government giving away tons of weather data and forecasts. So they are lobbing hard ($$$) to privatize/get rid of the NWS.

Do you really want to wonder if your weather service provider’s dues are paid up when a tornado might be heading your way?

Throw in that the NWS is also providing data about climate change and the future doesn’t look bright. The current budget proposal will cut a lot of positions from it.

One of the key things to always remember is that the classic examples of the USPS and Amtrak have been deliberately hampered by Congress to keep them from performing well. These are in no way, shape, or form examples of badly run government businesses on their own.

12

The government is a monopoly. By definition, monopolies are bad for consumers. And, not only is the government a monopoly, but it is a *hypocritical *monopoly, because it tries to forbid anyone else from being a monopoly.

13

And this monopoly is backed up with guns.

Not paying your income tax will result in a jail term and you will be escorted there by people with guns.

Not paying your property tax will result in the government confiscating your home and if you don’t leave the premises, people with guns will force you out.

No corporation has anything close to this power. If you don’t pay for something you bought from a corporation, they are forced to go to government courts to try to get you to pay.

14

This is such BS. I have had a credit card from multiple corporation for over 30 years and have never paid a cent of interest to them. They loan me money which I use to pay for purchases and I pay them back without interest at the end of the month. Paying for items with a credit is faster, easier and safer than paying with cash for BOTH the retailer and consumer. Furthermore, my United Airlines CC gives me miles for all my purchases which allow me to fly to Hawaii at least two or three times a year FREE.(OK, I have to pay $11.40 in taxes per trip). And finally, if somehow a person steals my CC information or if there is some suspicious charge, the corporation will notify (me free of charge) and if the charge turns out to be fraudulent, THEY will pay the full amount of the fraudulent charge and I pay NOTHING.

EVERYONE who has received a credit card from a corporation knows full well that if they don’t pay for the purchases that THEY made by the end of the month, they will pay (very high) interest rates. You don’t like using credit cards? That’s fine, use cash. No one is forced to use credit cards.

15

I don’t think the issue has anything to do with which entity is more efficient. The problem is with the conservative idea that corporations can and should be doing jobs best left to a representative government. Corporations look out for themselves and their profits. They have a terrible record of looking out for citizens, workers, safety, equality, and basic rights. Anything run “for profit” will be run with that end in mind, and nothing else. The problem with government is when it melds with and unnaturally props up/promotes corporations. There is no good reason to let corporations run prisons, or extensions of the military, or schools, or libraries, or health systems, and any number of other things. The government is not a business, and should not be run like one. It has a completely different set of duties and responsibilities that corporations don’t.

16

Refusing to pay, or intentionally evading, sure. Just not paying them just means that they send you bills and will confiscate or garnish your wages, the same as any other debtor that you owe.

Not paying your rent or your mortgage means that the bank or the landlord will force you out. they can call upon people with guns to do so.

Corporations don’t have to go through courts to try to get you to pay, they can call and harass and threaten all day long without any sanction from a court, however, just like the government, if they go through the courts, they can force you to pay.

Before accusing BS, you should make sure that you area actually reading what you are accusing of being wrong. The poster did not say anything about interest carried on CC accounts, but about charges to retailers, and that people with better credit ratings get cash back cards. The retailer has to charge everyone a few percent more to compensate for these charges, but the people with better credit ratings get a cut of that. Your post doesn’t even come close to addressing the post it is responding to. Your very example of getting something for “free” is an example of you getting something that other people paid for. There is no such thing as a free lunch, nor trips to Hawaii.

17

Tell that to any Windows licensee. He did mention rent-seeking, didn’t he? And I worked for a company which over-charged for software which was an effective monopoly. In fact, several.
Taxes are just the fees we pay for government services. Don’t like Window, get Linux. Don’t like US taxes, move to a place with less taxes. A big pain in both cases.

And we don’t get to vote on Windows fees directly or indirectly, do we?

18

Don’t pay your car loan, and someone will come and take it, won’t they? And with a lot less due process than losing a house to taxes.

19

In some cases government is wasteful, but in some it seems wasteful because its goals are different from those of a business. It is damn wasteful for the postal service to deliver mail to all those rural people, but the goal is universal mail delivery.
The Bell system did something similar, but it was a regulated monopoly and government set its rates to subsidize phone service for those far away from towns. I doubt any of those farmers ever did enough calling to pay for the wire and poles required to get phone service to them.

20

Government is about force, and it has guns. Government has real power over me. By contrast, corporations have no real power over me.

Hence my concern is government, not corporations.