Why do folks who have something to sell refuse to say what they want for it?

[mhendo]

@cosmosdan

They don’t have to know the exact number to have a reasonable idea of it’s value, as you yourself demonstrate. You knew if the bike sold used for around $350 you wouldn’t get to near that from a reseller. You’d be surprised how many people do their research and then ask for the full going price for thier item. It just isn’t reasonable or smart to do that to a resellor. Of course if they are just throwing out a number to get the ball rolling it’s NP.

But if their initial number is simply to “get the ball rolling,” and you have no problem with that, then why do you care whether or not they’re willing to give you a number at all? Why start the thread in the first place?

If all you want to do is “get the ball rolling,” why not just make them an offer as soon as they get in the store, instead of poking and prodding the person in an effort to get a number out of them? It doesn’t haven’t to be your absolute best offer; offer them something that you would be willing to pay, and that isn’t an insult. Then the ball is rolling, and the two of you can either come to a quick agreement on a fair price, or the person can walk away.

Also, like some others in this thread, i tend to think that a professional dealer, someone who makes used equipment trades all the time as part of his business, and who knows the market for used equipment, should be willing to make an offer first.

This sort of thing happens at all levels of price. I sold cars for a year (hated every minute of every day) and, as everyone knows, one of the biggest negotiating points in the sale of a new car is the value of the person’s trade-in, if they have one. People tell all sorts of stories about what they think their car should be worth, and car dealerships tell all sorts of stories about why it’s not actually worth as much as you think. As some in this thread have already noted, people develop attachments to their stuff, and this is often especially true with cars, and will often develop a sense of value that is out of line with what anyone would actually pay.

I often found that the best way to cut through some of the bullshit was to call their bluff. For example, say my used car valuer put a price of $4,000 on the car, and the customer told me that the guy down the road had offered him $6,500 for it. Now i knew that there’s no way any other dealer in the area was going to pay $6,500 for that car, so there is one of two possibilities going on here: either he’s bullshitting in order to try and push up my price, or the other dealer has artificially jacked up the price of his trade-in by discounting the new car.

That happens all the time. If your new car sells for $30,000 MSRP, as a salesperson you know how much room you have to play with the price. And for some cars that runs into the thousands of dollars. So if some guy is set on getting $6,500 for a car that is worth $4,000, you simply tell him that you’ll give him $6,500 for his car, and take the other $2,500 out of the sale price of the new car.

The problem, in these cases, is that too many buyers are so invested in the (presumed) value of their old car that they don’t keep an eye on the only number that matters: the changeover price. That is, if you’re trading in an old car for a new car, and are shopping around different dealers, the only number you should be concerned with is how much you will have to pay in order to hand over your old car and drive away in the new one.

If Dealer A gives you $6,500 for your trade-in, and sells you the new car for $30,000, your changeover price is $23,500. Now if Dealer B only offers you $4,000 for your trade-in, but also discounts the new car to $27,000, your changeover is $23,000. You should go with Dealer B, but all some people see is that Dealer B insulted them by offering only $4,000 for their pride and joy. It’s a very strange game.

In such cases, i found that the best strategy was to try and educate people about the importance of changeover price. Sometimes that worked, and sometimes it didn’t. In some cases, especially if i was pretty sure that they were bullshitting, i just called them on it. I’d say, quite genuinely, “Well, that’s an excellent offer. If someone is willing to give you $6,500 for that car, you should go and take it right now, because, quite honestly, i simply can’t match that price.” When i did that, a fairly frequent response was, “Well, how much CAN you give me for it? What’s your best offer?” That’s when you know that their $6,500 number was bullshit.

[cosmosdan]

@AnthonyElite

I think you underestimate the power of information asymmetry. The seller doesn’t know what the item is worth, necessarily, and gains nothing by naming the price first.

Sigh! did you read the other posts? It’s only a popular meme that he who throws out a number first loses. Of course some sellers honestly don’t know the value which is why I take people at face value. If they say “I don’t know, or, I want to hear your offer first” n problem. Experience tells me 8 out of 10 customers who say " I don’t know" actually do have some value in mind , although not nessecarily a realistic one. Part of my job is doing the buying in a timely manner. The best customers are the ones who have done their homework , have some realisitic concept of the items value, and understand that we need some room for our own profit. If he makes a reasonable request chances are I’ll give him what he asks and move on rather than try to haggle for a few bucks less. If a customer has some idea of it’s value but asks more than my max we also both save time because I generally go right for the max I can pay and he can say yes or no.

“I see these are selling for around $400 and I was hoping to get $300 from you.”

" Well I can’t get there because there’s no certainty I can sell it for $400 , but I can do $225"

Take the example I gave above of the guy with the bice set of drums. He had already gotten an offer that was all or almost all of the resale value from someone else. If he had told me that up front, “I’ve been offered X can you do better” I’d have said “No I can’t” and we’d have both saved 20 minutes.

To summerize , the meme that the seller has nothing to gain by naming a price is not true IMO and experience. It’s generally more of a time waster.

Ultimately the seller has nothing to gain and profit on the table to lose by revealing the asking price.

I suspect you are well aware of that and are simply griping about savvy sellers.

I suspect you think your post is true rather than just your opinion based on little real world experience.

[cosmosdan]

@mhendo

But if their initial number is simply to “get the ball rolling,” and you have no problem with that, then why do you care whether or not they’re willing to give you a number at all? Why start the thread in the first place?

The gripe and the thread is about a certain group of customers who have a value in mind and what they would like to get but refuse to say so. I find this out when I make an offer and they say “No Way” or give some disgusted snort. It seems like an unnessecary game to me and wastes time. If your minimum is $300 on an item worth $350 at best, then say so and I’ll politely explain I can’t do that, no hard feelings have a nice day. When I offer $150 and you act like I just kicked your dog it doesn’t make the negotiations better.

If an item comes in that I’m very familiar with and I know what we pay for them I will just make the offer. If it’s something I have to research it speeds things along to know what they want. Sometimes when people’s expectations are way to high, like a price more than I think I could sell it for, I won’t make an offer at all. I’ll explain I think we’re to far apart and don’t want to appear to be low balling them. I tell people daily that they can get more if they sell it themselves to the end user rather than to us a reseller. Some folks have already tried CL or Ebay and had no luck. Some leave to give it a shot only to come back at a later date.

Ultimately the seller is in complete control over what he accepts or rejects and I am in control over what I’m willing to pay. It’s just a conversation between adults and doesn’t have to be some personal win or lose confrontation.

If all you want to do is “get the ball rolling,” why not just make them an offer as soon as they get in the store, instead of poking and prodding the person in an effort to get a number out of them?

Who said I poke and prod? I don’t.

It doesn’t haven’t to be your absolute best offer; offer them something that you would be willing to pay, and that isn’t an insult. Then the ball is rolling, and the two of you can either come to a quick agreement on a fair price, or the person can walk away.

um yeah I know. I’ve been doing this for a while.

Also, like some others in this thread, i tend to think that a professional dealer, someone who makes used equipment trades all the time as part of his business, and who knows the market for used equipment, should be willing to make an offer first.

Oh I’m willing to but it’s not a matter of etiquette. Look if you an adult have an item to sell and walk into my place of business voluntarily to sell it then my asking “how much do you want?” is not an unreasonable question at all. If your sincere answer is “I don’t really know” and you haven’t done your homework that’s okay, but that’s not what this thread is about.

This sort of thing happens at all levels of price. I sold cars for a year (hated every minute of every day) and, as everyone knows, one of the biggest negotiating points in the sale of a new car is the value of the person’s trade-in, if they have one. People tell all sorts of stories about what they think their car should be worth, and car dealerships tell all sorts of stories about why it’s not actually worth as much as you think. As some in this thread have already noted, people develop attachments to their stuff, and this is often especially true with cars, and will often develop a sense of value that is out of line with what anyone would actually pay.

Don’t I know it. IMO if they have decided to sell Dad’s old guitar then they should try to let go of any sentimental value before they come in. If it has no collectability and is just an old guitar I understand them choosing to keep it rather than just get a few bucks.

If Dealer A gives you $6,500 for your trade-in, and sells you the new car for $30,000, your changeover price is $23,500. Now if Dealer B only offers you $4,000 for your trade-in, but also discounts the new car to $27,000, your changeover is $23,000. You should go with Dealer B, but all some people see is that Dealer B insulted them by offering only $4,000 for their pride and joy. It’s a very strange game.

In such cases, i found that the best strategy was to try and educate people about the importance of changeover price. Sometimes that worked, and sometimes it didn’t.

We occasionally get people who want to trade sideways. I have a guitar you can sell for $500 and I’ll trade it for that guitar you have for $500.
Nope, that doesn’t help us pay the light bill.

We often get someone who negotiates a better price and THEN tells us he has a trade. Then we politely tell him the negotiated price was a cash price but hey, bring your trade in and we’ll see which is best for you.

In some cases, especially if i was pretty sure that they were bullshitting, i just called them on it. I’d say, quite genuinely, "Well, that’s an excellent offer. If someone is willing to give you $6,500 for that car, you should go and take it right now, because, quite honestly, i simply can’t match that price."When i did that, a fairly frequent response was, “Well, how much CAN you give me for it? What’s your best offer?” That’s when you know that their $6,500 number was bullshit.

Also a somewhat frequent occurence.

[cosmosdan]

@MikeF

How about this for a strategy? The buyer has a maximum amount he’s willing to pay. The seller has a minimum amount he’s willing to accept. They both write down their figures and exchange them. If they match, there is a deal. If the maximum “I’ll pay” figure is less than the minimum “I’ll take” figure, there is no deal. If the figures overlap, you split the difference and have a deal. For this to work both parties have to write down their respective true limit figure and agreed there will be no “re-negotiating” after the figures have been exchanged.

that true limit figure will work just as well in verbal negotiations if people will just be straight forward from the get go. They’re not and that’s kinda the point.

[cosmosdan]

@epbrown01

Comics seem really tough thanks to Overstreet. There’s defining what mint condition is, there’s explaining that while a comic sold for $200 somewhere once, not everyone is going to be looking for it everywhere.

Yup, supply and demand changes from location to location and there’s also the matter of inventory. If someone brings in a Fender Squier and I already have 5 or 6 I won’t be making a strong offer. If I have zero in stock I will.

[cosmosdan]

@Shamozzle

This reminds me of a friend of mine. He has a sports car he never drives and he wants to sell it.

But he never puts it on the market because he “can’t get what it’s worth”, he says.

I say, “You mean, what you want for it.”

He says, “No, what it’s worth.”

What the hell? If you can’t get what you think its worth then it’s not, in fact, worth that…no?

correct. It’s only worth what someone is willing to pay, period.

Some people would like to think there’s a simple math formula for determing value. There isn’t. Some items are in demand and people will pay a higher % than it originally sold for , some, not in demand, considerably less.

[AnthonyElite]

@cosmosdan

Sigh! did you read the other posts? It’s only a popular meme that he who throws out a number first loses. Of course some sellers honestly don’t know the value which is why I take people at face value. If they say “I don’t know, or, I want to hear your offer first” n problem. Experience tells me 8 out of 10 customers who say " I don’t know" actually do have some value in mind , although not nessecarily a realistic one. Part of my job is doing the buying in a timely manner. The best customers are the ones who have done their homework , have some realisitic concept of the items value, and understand that we need some room for our own profit. If he makes a reasonable request chances are I’ll give him what he asks and move on rather than try to haggle for a few bucks less. If a customer has some idea of it’s value but asks more than my max we also both save time because I generally go right for the max I can pay and he can say yes or no.

“I see these are selling for around $400 and I was hoping to get $300 from you.”

" Well I can’t get there because there’s no certainty I can sell it for $400 , but I can do $225"

Take the example I gave above of the guy with the bice set of drums. He had already gotten an offer that was all or almost all of the resale value from someone else. If he had told me that up front, “I’ve been offered X can you do better” I’d have said “No I can’t” and we’d have both saved 20 minutes.

To summerize , the meme that the seller has nothing to gain by naming a price is not true IMO and experience. It’s generally more of a time waster.

Ultimately the seller has nothing to gain and profit on the table to lose by revealing the asking price.

I suspect you think your post is true rather than just your opinion based on little real world experience.

No, I am correct. Your answer is shit, you quoted one hackneyed article, that doesn’t make you right.

The bottom line is your complaining about someone doing the same god damned thing you are doing but you are too fool hearty to realize it.

Your complaint is that the seller is refusing to name a price. You are also failing to name a price. You just want the seller to name the price first so you can have the advantage. Too bad

[cosmosdan]

@AnthonyElite

No, I am correct. Your answer is shit, you quoted one hackneyed article, that doesn’t make you right.

The bottom line is your complaining about someone doing the same god damned thing you are doing but you are too fool hearty to realize it.

Your complaint is that the seller is refusing to name a price. You are also failing to name a price. You just want the seller to name the price first so you can have the advantage. Too bad

Hey Anthony, I couldn’t help but notice that you offerd ZERO to back up your correctness.

Do you have anything other than an opinion and an attitude?

If you think my complaint is just that a seller refuses to name a price you haven’t comprehended what’s been written.

[AnthonyElite]

@cosmosdan

Hey Anthony, I couldn’t help but notice that you offerd ZERO to back up your correctness.

Do you have anything other than an opinion and an attitude?

If you think my complaint is just that a seller refuses to name a price you haven’t comprehended what’s been written.

I have comprehended. It is you who fails to grasp the situation you yourself have described. You want the other party to name the price instead of yourself. Well if you want that so badly as to complain about it here then clearly there is some benefit in not naming the price. Otherwise you would happily pounce at the opportunity to name the price first.

And someone already referenced information asymmetry, which is a well documented effect not requiring a source. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the person with more knowledge in a deal has the upper hand. You offer inc.com as a reference to refute that commonly held knowledge? Better do better than that!

[cosmosdan]

@AnthonyElite

I have comprehended. It is you who fails to grasp the situation you yourself have described. You want the other party to name the price instead of yourself.

Nope, I simply want folks to answer a simple question honestly if they can.
“I have this item for sale”
“OKay, how much were you asking” {I often ad “keeping in mind we buy to resell”}
If “I don’t know what these are going for” is the honest answer that’s fine. “I’d rather you make an offer first” can be an honest answer and I’m okay with that too, but IMO it’s easier for both parties and quicker if they just have some asking price in mind. As I mentioned earlier , on items we see a lot off and I already know what we will pay for them, I generally just tell them to save time.

It has nothing to do with having a financial advantage over them, your imagined notions aside. It has to do with doing a business transaction smoothly and efficently with less game playing and wasted time. If they have done their homework and make a reasonable request I’ll pay it and we’re both happy. If they haven’t and have some unrealisitic expectation I know that by their asking price and we can discuss it. If they insist on more than a reseller is willing to pay no hard feelings and good luck. If they want to be done and avoid the sometimes hassle of selling it themselves they can accept my offer.

Well if you want that so badly as to complain about it here then clearly there is some benefit in not naming the price. Otherwise you would happily pounce at the opportunity to name the price first.

I guess your psychology classes didn’t go as well as your economics ones did.

And someone already referenced information asymmetry, which is a well documented effect not requiring a source. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the person with more knowledge in a deal has the upper hand.

No it doesn’t but it also assumes that one party has relevant information and another party does not. That isn’t always the case in the scenario I’m describing and that means what you describe as common knowledge doesn’t apply. In fact,

“With increased advancements in technology, asymmetric information has been on the decline as a result of more and more people being able to easily access all types of information.”

as another poster put it, “Do your homework” Most sellers have access to determine what their item is worth and have some point of reference knowing what they paid for it. In fact the very people I’m griping about generally have rellevant information. Them telling me an asking price helps determine if they’ve done their homework and have realistic expectations. It makes the process easier for BOTH of us. So, even though information asymmetry is an actual economic principle you can’t show that it applies here. Your assumptions don’t cut it.

You offer inc.com as a reference to refute that commonly held knowledge? Better do better than that!

My reference wasn’t referring to that specific principle which has specific requirements. It’s addressing a popular meme in haggling which is “never throw out a number first” It’s saying that studies show that isn’t true. If you’ve done minimum homework and know what your item is going for and understand that a reseller won’t offer full value, then you are starting from a position of some pretty relevant knowledge and your principle doesn’t even apply.

[Voyager]

@fisha

Additionally, it is very common for people to have an unreasonable expectation of what their possessions are worth.

Not only common, perhaps built-in to us. It’s called the endowment effect and there have been experiment done showing it exists in chimps. I think I see it in my dog also.

[Voyager]

@cosmosdan

It sure seems that some people see it that way. I thought this was interesting.
"3. “Why don’t you throw out a number?” There are differing schools of thought on this, and many people believe you should never be the first person in a negotiation to quote a price. Let the other side start the bidding, the thinking goes, and they will be forced to show their hands, which will provide you with an advantage. But some research has indicated that the result of a negotiation is often closer to what the first mover proposed than to the number the other party had in mind; the first number uttered in a negotiation (so long as it is not ridiculous) has the effect of “anchoring the conversation.” And one’s role in the negotiation can matter, too. In the book Negotiation, Adam D. Galinsky of Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management and Roderick I. Swaab of INSEAD in France write: “In our studies, we found that the final outcome of a negotiation is affected by whether the buyer or the seller makes the first offer. Specifically, when a seller makes the first offer, the final settlement price tends to be higher than when the buyer makes the first offer.”

http://www.inc.com/guides/2011/01/five-things-to-never-say-while-negotiating.html

Anchoring is very powerful. In our behavioral economics tutorial we did an anchoring experiment and got statistically significant results for two years in a row with a population of only about 20.

The first number thrown out doesn’t even have to be relevant to the negotiation. You might be able to reduce the price by asking them for change of a quarter.

[Voyager]

@steronz

Information asymmetry is fairly powerful in situations like this. A customer walks in knowing a personal history of the instrument (i.e., what they paid for it) and not much else. You as the buyer know all kinds of things about the musical instrument market. You hold all the cards and wield all the power, and then a customer walks in and you say, “Tell me the only piece of information you have that I don’t have, and then we’ll begin negotiations.”

Not only that, if they start with too low a price they would worry about being ripped off and if they start with too high a price they might worry about being scorned by the purchaser - even if it wouldn’t happen.

[Voyager]

@cosmosdan

One thing that happens often is people wanting all or most of the money. Meaning, since they did a little research and found their item was selling for $100 they expect $100. We often explain that since we only buy to resell we can’t do that and 90% understand.

They may have anchored to the price they saw online. Especially if it was already lower than they thought their item was worth.
Or for some weird reason they don’t trust the price they saw online. I can’t imagine why.

I bought a few CDs recently for $7 each at a used record store. They were relatively rare, so I looked them up. The only prices I found were $100 each. I suspect they real price is somewhere in the middle.

[cosmosdan]

@Voyager

They may have anchored to the price they saw online. Especially if it was already lower than they thought their item was worth.
Or for some weird reason they don’t trust the price they saw online. I can’t imagine why.

I bought a few CDs recently for $7 each at a used record store. They were relatively rare, so I looked them up. The only prices I found were $100 each. I suspect they real price is somewhere in the middle.

I think that’s it. Some don’t understand that people can ask for any price on CL and ebay and that’s not always what they are SELLING for. Fairly often we get a comment like , “well it’s worth X” or “it’s worth more than your offer”
“Yes it is , and that’s what I hope we can sell it for”

One young man got all indignant with his cheap power amp.
“So you’re going to pay me $50 and then mark it at $100?”

Yes. It fits with the whole store theme we have going.

[jnglmassiv]

I was looking at three items on Craig’s List earlier this year and made an appointment to check them out.
Together, they were priced at $320, something like $120, 110 and 90.
I asked the guy how much for all three.
He said to make an offer so I threw out $275 which I thought was fair.
He replies, ‘No, I need $300.’

What was he hoping I’d offer?!?
He knocks it down, what, 6% like he’s doing me a favor.

[mhendo]

@jnglmassiv

What was he hoping I’d offer?!?
He knocks it down, what, 6% like he’s doing me a favor.

It’s not a matter of “doing you a favor” though, is it?

He’s making a calculation based on the amount of money he would like to get, measured against the time and effort required to sell the item.

He obviously decided that he is willing to spend the extra time and effort in order to get $300 for them, and that the time and effort he would save by selling them all to you at one time is not worth the $25 he would lose by doing so.

He could just as easily ask, “He wants a 14% discount, and he acts like he’s doing me a favor?”

[GreenElf]

Whenever I do a garage sale, people often won’t buy anything unless you give them a discount off of the price sticker. If you want $10 for something, you have to put $12-20 on the price sticker.

[TokyoBayer]

@cosmosdan

I think that’s it. Some don’t understand that people can ask for any price on CL and ebay and that’s not always what they are SELLING for. Fairly often we get a comment like , “well it’s worth X” or “it’s worth more than your offer”
“Yes it is , and that’s what I hope we can sell it for”

One young man got all indignant with his cheap power amp.
“So you’re going to pay me $50 and then mark it at $100?”

Yes. It fits with the whole store theme we have going.

Tell them they can possibly get more on CL and ebay, and then they get to deal with the hassle of buying and selling.

The funny thing is that they won’t catch the reference to themselves.

[cosmosdan]

@TokyoBayer

Tell them they can possibly get more on CL and ebay, and then they get to deal with the hassle of buying and selling.

The funny thing is that they won’t catch the reference to themselves.

I already do that every day. I tell them they can get more by selling it themselves to the user {our market} on CL or ebay. Many don’t want to. Just today we had a customer who had laready been trying to sell it on CL for a while and just didn’t want the hassle anymore so he took our offer.