Okay. I think you’re confusing Judaism’s “Ten Commandments” with a Charlton Heston movie. First of all, all mitzvot are equal. Second, you need to cite *Jewish *commandments. They can be found here.
Third, there are some theologists who will claim that every time Jews assimilate, fight each other, or move away from Jewish practice, their children suffer. That would fall under your definition of what our “fourth” commandment is.
That’s what it seems to you.
I addressed potential closet Christians already. Any theistic religion that is not Judaism is just that - not Judaism. So you’d be an ethnic Jew that turned away from God and to another. But seriously? Who’d be a closet Christian?
Since when has being a religious Jew outside of Israel ever been helpful? :smack:
How do you know what “we” are like? You’ve been on this forum for what, four days? Religion gets shit on here all the time. Anyone professing any spirituality gets shot down and mocked.
OK, sorry, I thought you were saying something else. Never mind that remark.
I really am sorry if I’m coming off as being so hostile. Looking over my past posts, it seems that way. I’m sorry. It’s just that this topic gets me wound up because it relates to how I was raised. My parents raised me with a spiritually empty form of Judaism that was completely wrapped up in ritual that had no meaning, boring services that had no connection to real life, and a lot of reform and reconstruction type “Jews” who would make sarcastic commentary on the religion all the time.
Hmm…that’s not so antithetical to many modern sects of Judaism.
Intellectualism has always been in Judaism. So has God. If you ever want to, many a shul or chavurah would love to have you.* I like the practice and academia of Conservative synagogues, but no one cares if I drive on Saturday.
*as long as you don’t think Jesus to be God
My family was in a Chavurah (sp? Never actually seen that word written out) with three other families when I was a kid up until a few years ago. But they stopped inviting us to stuff after my parents split up, not right away but gradually. As a kid, I always really enjoyed dinners and holidays with these people (and it introduced me to drinking [wine] at a pretty young age, which I think was a good thing because I learned moderation.) But I haven’t been to a gathering with them in years.
OK, well, since I made that post, I think it’s pretty obvious that your form of Judaism, though atheist, is still significantly more observant than my parents. So don’t take that personally.
You can believe in the existence of other gods, so long as you aren’t following them. The reason why Christianity is problematic is because Christianity makes claims on the **Jewish **God.
Believing in the existence of Zeus is not in violation of having other gods if you do not follow Zeus.
Believing in Jesus is in violation of having other gods because 1) Jesus negates the definition of HaShem and 2) you are worshiping an image.
The Israelites acknowledged other gods - they called them false gods. Jesus was a false prophet who claimed to be God in the flesh.
I may have missed the nuances of what you said there – is that what you meant?
I’m having serious trouble understanding why “circular reasoning” is an issue here (with the three-legged dog club or anything else). To make another analogy, the definition of a US citizen is someone who the US government has decided is a citizen. That’s not circular reasoning, that’s how you decide who is in your group. “Jews are who Jewish people say are Jews” is a tautology if it’s anything, but I don’t get the “circular reasoning” claim. It’s not an argument for anything - it’s just a definition!
This is really beautifully put. What this subconversation has highlighted to me is that people don’t really have a choice in what we believe. Just like you believe “there has to be a supreme architect”, and it doesn’t sound like you’re able to change that belief even if you wanted to, some of us Just Don’t, and can’t change that belief if we tried. What we can change, and choose, is our actions.
I’m sorry you feel resentful that atheist/non-theist Jewish people seem to get to have it all - and to be honest, we do. Not the “social cachet” of atheism, which I think is likely a grass-is-greener fantasy, but yes, we do get to both participate in meaningful spiritual practice, and do it as part of a community that accepts and engages with our non-theist beliefs.
And the great thing about Judaism is that that option is available to lots of people, not only non-theists. Your non-specific deism and desire for meaningful spirituality is absolutely on the Jewish spectrum (and I suspect is much more mainstream than non-theism!).
I think we can all agree that mocking rituals, as you say your family did, is not a good way of creating spirituality or religious meaning. But as you’ve noted (thank you!), most non-theist Jewish people in this thread have been describing the opposite: we participate in rituals and Jewish practice because we do find them deeply meaningful. The posts on page 5 of this thread represent that well. I think this speaks extremely well of the rituals and the religious structure of progressive Judaism: it creates a compelling and meaningful “spirituality” and philosophy that we choose to follow because we find it genuinely rewarding as itself, not because we feel we have to or will be punished if we don’t. It stands up on its own.
I’m certain there is some “reason” for the universe, but humans–at least at this point in time–have no way of knowing “why” the universe exists (the how we have started to understand a little bit, but not the why). And you think that gives you license to make shit up out of whole cloth? Not if you expect to be taking seriously.
I myself have no problem with not knowing “why” because I realize that–short of making something up (and/or deceiving myself), and pretending that I understand the deepest, most unknowable mysteries of the Cosmos–there is no possible way I could know this information.
But you know the answers, right? Because the universe is beautiful that explains how it came to be? Cosmogenesis by aesthetics? That’s just a wee bit flimsy, don’t you think?
It is mind-boggling to me that people have the nerve to assert they know without a doubt both the “how” and the “why” of the universe. The arrogance of their “special knowledge” is bad enough, but it becomes comical and sadly pathetic that this “special knowledge” they smugly believe in is patently ridiculous and nonsensical.
Do you understand that there are religions that don’t feel the need to bow down to a Christ-like figure? That these very religions might have no need for “divinity” or “higher power”? That some religions are not Christ worshiping?
Again–is the divine always necessary in all religions? Further, it is rather a fair-weather Atheist who holds his/her beliefs merely for social cachet and compelling cocktail-party conversation, wouldn’t you say? Are you a Theist just to impress chicks?
