Why do many straight people think gays adore Barbra Streisand?

I’ve got this new tenant below me, and while I like her a great deal, when she found out my partner and I are gay, she began gushing over Barbra. To her dismay, we did not share this worship.

Tonight, we invited her over for dinner and our favorite show Charmed. She insisted on bringing over Funny Girl.

While we were entertained, we’re not building a shrine to her. Nor would we build one to Julie Andrews, Liza Minelli, or Judy Garland. Maybe one for Bette, but it’d be a small tasteful one.

Still… I know we’re not the only fags who don’t adore, and at times could not care less about what are percieved to be gay icons. What’s the deal with some straight people and their demand that we worship these bitches?

This could just be the case of one specific loser, ya know. Personally, I don’t understand why anyone would think a single kind thought about Steisand. However, someone must be responsible for the travesty that is her success. Why not gay men? I think I’ll also start blaming you for traffic conditions during my morning commute.

Me-ow! As another gay guy(albeit not the Gay Guy, it seems to me that the whole Liza/Judy/Barbara thing was stems from the pre-Stonewall days when being campy and tragic were “in” among the gay crowd, as in “The Boys In The Band.” A young gay guy could listen to Barbara sing about the same emotions he felt, but never dared to openly express.

Now it’s 2000, muscle queens are, in and being gay is no longer tragic and special, but just another ordinary segment of the human sexual spectrum. Correspondingly, there is no longer a need for gay icons to express the feelings we dared not. Nowadays, “the love that dares not speak its name” has become the love that won’t shut up. Heck, Jack on "Will & Grace is gayer than a treeful of monkeys on helium, and the religious right hasn’t said a peep.

These days, effeminacy and camp are passe, and the new gay icons are empowered, strong people, like say, Madonna, k.d. lang, and Melissa Etheridge. I couldn’t see any of them weeping over Nicky Arnstein or singing “When The Parade Passes By.”

In addition, Barbara and her sisters have all become women
“of a certain age” shall we say, and the under-30 crowd of gay men, I find are shockingly ignorant of anything that happened pre-Britney. I doubt they’ve even heard anything by Barbara Streisand.

IMHO, I don’t think any young gay guy should be admitted into a club or bar unless he can quote a line from “All About Eve”, “The Women”, or “Cabaret.” :smiley: After all, we must keep up traditions.

Hastur, you should join the group a friend of mine started: “Gays Against Garland,” or GAG.

His boyfriend is a Judy fan, but my friend says, “what the hell kind of role model is that pill-popping, whining mess?” He’s not even crazy about her acting or singing. When his boyfriend dragged him (no pun intended) to an auction where some of Judy’s clothes were, my friend horrified everyone by checking the pants lining “for extra pills.”

It’s quite simple Hastur. We male straights need to be attracted to the female singers we like. Trust me, Brittney can’t sing, but, if the opportunity arose, I’d go see her. Hell, I burned her CD just cuz I like thinking about her videos. Sad, but true.

Anyway, for a straight male to like Barbara is to say we are attracted to someone who got bashed in the face with the ugly bat a couple times and then thrown to a bulldog as a chew toy. Hell, maybe the bulldog ate her and replaced her, I dunno. So straight males figure, “we don’t like her, and her concert pictures don’t have all females in the audience, so those guys must be ALL gay because they don’t have to worry about how nasty she looks, because they wouldn’t be attracted to her anyway.”

“gayer than a treeful of monkeys on helium”

Now I have to wipe some coffee off of the monitor…thanks!

…just read this yesterday…very germane to this thread
[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/gross.htm"The Queen is Dead
regards,
fetus

Hey! I like Barbra! Not Liza so much. And Garth Brooks, too! :stuck_out_tongue:

Eh, if people can’t get over stereotypes, fuck 'em.

Esprix

…uh, lets try this again http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/08/gross.htm

Oh, poop. (flounces away in a huff.)

Oh, shit the bed! I like Streisand, and I adore Bette. Judy doesn’t always flip my switch, but I don’t hate her. And I would sooner emasculate myself with a spork than listen to Britney. And I’m straight.

So, to answer the OP, Damned if I know.

Oh, and, Esprix, Garth Brooks? Really? Ick.

::Chuckling to myself about GAG::

Waste
Flick Lives!

Read Susan Sontag’s Notes on Camp, or Wayne Koestenbaum’s The Queen’s Throat.

I won’t even address Spider’s bizarre theory, which couldn’t be more wrong and I hope was entirely tongue-in-cheek: everyone knows that gay men know a lot more about beauty than straight men :D.

I don’t think the age of female gay icons is past. The age of Judy is past, yes; and let’s hope the age of Barbra is passing. But Madonna is just as much a gay icon as either of them. True, she’s an icon who reflects her era, but she’s a descendent of Judy and Barbra in the gay pantheon nonetheless. Judy and Barbra were themselves descended from the great opera divas that came before them.

As far as why gay men feel this need to celebrate exaggerated notions of “femininity,” everyone knows why but no one can really explain it. That’s why Sontag, who set out to write a book on camp, finally gave up and just published a collection of notes: it was impossible to come to any conclusions. Koestenbaum’s book, an examination of gay men and their diva icons, has a similar structure: a series of disparate anecdotes peppered with poetic flights of Freudianesque theory, but again no real thesis and no conclusion.

Surely it’s due to a constellation of quasi reasons:
[ul][li]Gay men, wanting to be loved by another man, have only women as models for this relationship in the culture at large. Maybe this will change as true gay role models grow in cultural prominence.[/li][li]Once we’ve identified with a woman as the object of a man’s love, perhaps we conflate our “oppression” (for lack of a better word) with theirs. We see an image of a strong woman, breaking through the obstacle of the male dominance myth, and we celebrate with them, and like them.[/li][li]We recognize them as fellow oppressed (we with our sexuality closeted, they with their strength disguised) and share a common secret. Consider Samantha Stevens as a gay icon: she has a power, a strength, that society frowns upon. Her husband is willing to love her if she keeps it closeted. Her flamboyant mother (now there’s a drag queen!) and relatives urge her to celebrate her power, to show her true self to the world, but she conforms to the strictures placed upon her by prying neighbors in order keep her husband’s love (not to mention his job). (I don’t mean to suggest that Bewitched was a gay allegory; only that gay men find in it much subtext to identify with. I think it was less a touchstone for women because Samantha chose the low road: Bewitched can be seen to be regressive, in re the feminist movement. But for gay men, Samantha’s situation reflected their reality, and the frustrations of the closeted life. Buffy is something of a gay icon as well, though less so: she’s more clearly gynocentric and less malleable to gay iconography. Let’s hope she’s an indication of gay icons to come: she has a power, a secret from society at large, but she’s “out” to her friends, and together they’re stronger than she’d be alone.)[/li][li]Gay men have traditionally been forced to express themselves in allegory. Even if this is less the case now, for most of us who grew up knowing we were gay as kids, we know what it’s like to be afraid to reveal our true self. We instinctively understand the allegory of the singer or performer: the beautiful and intangible (the self) coming forth from within the body (the concrete projection we construct for the world). If you love someone, you want to “shout it from the rooftops.” Even now, today, to literally do this can be dangerous for a gay man to do; at any rate that’s the learned fear we must overcome. But allegorically we can accomplish this in song.[/ul]So somehow, nonsequentially, nonmathematically, and perhaps even illogically, the diva is where all these fragments of the gay psyche come together.[/li]
My divas:
k.d. lang
Kate Bush
Doris Day
Betty Hutton
Diamanda Galas
P.J. Harvey

For you thoughtful gay men out there—I always wondered why Joan Crawford and Bette Davis became major gay icons, but not Barbara Stanwyck. They had a lot in common:

• Careers from the late '20s to the '70s
• Not pretty, but striking-looking
• Great actresses but tended to parody themselves
• Good mixture of really good and hilariously awful movies
• OK, I guess Stanwyck’s private life wasn’t quite as colorful as Bette’s or Joan’s . . .

Were you referring to Bette Davis? Because it’s Bette Midler that I adore. Not that I have anything against Ms Davis, mind you. I’m just a bigger fan of mermaid costumes.

Waste
Flick Lives!

I know what you mean, Hastur. As a gay man in his mid-30s (smack dab in the middle, to be precise), I have no use for Barbra, Judy, et al. (Well, like you, maybe Bette Midler.)

My partner of 8 years and I are anything but stereotypical gays, at least in our eyes. We’re not hip to the latest trendy fashions. We don’t hang out in the hot gay nightspots. We don’t march in or even attend the Pride parades.

We listen to country, adult alternative, and modern rock music, but haven’t got a clue about the latest dance music scene. We follow football, hockey, and baseball. [Homer voice on]Mmmmm…guys in baseball uniforms…[Homer voice off]. We have a deep interest in history and travel, and try to combine the two when we can.

About the only thing that’s stereotypical gay about us is that he enjoys decorating for Christmas and Halloween, and I have a few Broadway musical soundtracks in my CD collection that I can sing along with on every song.

I hope that some day people will stop pigeon-holing us into some preconceived idea of what being gay means. And by people, I mean both straights and gays.

Of course it was TIC, but I still must insist that, IMO, Streisand is one funny looking girl who cannot act for SHIT! As far as I can tell, not having listened to her music really, she is reputed to be a good singer. But I have been forced to watch her movies, and I just cannot stand them. I’m no looker either, but she has got a wacked out face crowned by that celestial joke of a nose, and she has an acting style snort which, well, it grates like concrete in a blender. I have no idea why she became a gay icon. I did like my theory tho.

And GLWasteful, you are NOT supposed to listen to Britney. You are supposed to play her CD and think horrible pedophile thoughts while flipping through the liner pictures. Then “punish” yourself for thinking bad thoughts.

Spider:

Eh, maybe. But I don’t even much care for the thought of her. And spending money to lay hands on liner pictures? I would rather purchase another copy of the Cabaret soundtrack. Mayhap that’s just me, though.

Waste
Flick Lives!

Funny Girl? Is that the one with Omar Sharif?
I’m a straight female who has a thing for Doctor Zhivago…yummy!

I concur. During last night’s forced viewing of Funny Girl, I thought Omar looked hot. My female friend who was making me watch it thought I was nuts.

As I was tired when I began this thread last night, I have to point out… it isn’t that I’m wondering why some gay men like Judy, Liza with a Z, or Barbra… It is a wondering of why heterosexuals think gay men MUST love these silly, pathetic bitches.

I must admit though… I think Barbra is pretty and don’t understand why her looks are so maligned… But. I don’t want to get off topic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hastur *
**

The answer to that question, insofar is there is one, has nothing to do with gay or straight or Barbra or Liza. Why do people stereotype at all? Most of Barbra’s and Liza’s audiences are gay men, and the stereotype is extrapolated to all gay men.

More to the point, though, why did you post this in the pit? Were you saying, in effect, “Stop stereotyping me, you narrowminded breeders!” Or were you in fact really asking for an explanation? If so, then this thread has no business in the pit, IMHO.