Why do people become more dogmatic when they become parents? For a specific example: Why would an agnostic suddenly become creationist after having kids? Or do you disagree with this blanket statement (which is of course derived from personal experience)?
Well, I’d be interested in meeting that particular parent.
IME when you become a parent, you realize that you’ve got a huge responsibility for someone else. It’s quite frightening actually. Naturally, people want to do the best job possible, so they start worrying about TV and Madonna and proper nutrition and all sorts of things they never worried about before.
A child can also make a person more flexible; a control-freak sort of person (such as my aunt!) who has always had specific habits and scheduling may realize that they can’t control everything and that the world won’t end if you don’t get to the gym every single day.
Having children can also make people think very hard about the sort of childhood/education they want to give their child. And since most people have their parents as their main model, possibly without truly realizing it, they may start going back to the habits they were raised with.
I became a much more extreme agnostic when I became a parent. Before, I thought I knew quite a bit, then realized I didn’t know nearly so much. I am now patiently advised that I don’t know shit.
Well, I was an atheist before having a kid, and I’m an atheist now that I have a kid. And I didn’t become any more or less militant or dogmatic about it.
A couple of folks I know (co-workers, of course) “turned Christian” after having children because, in effect, they felt like there was no better way they could teach morals to their kids without the structure of a Christian religion. I reckon it was too hard to raise your kids to be logical, critical thinkers based firmly in scientific principles - when your kid asks “why does it rain?”, “why should I go to school”, or “why did you call that woman a filthy dyke?” you can simply say “because God wants it that way.” and go back to watching football or American Idol.
Stupid board locked up so I couldn’t edit:
Edited to add: before someone jumps on what I wrote as characterizing all Christians, everywhere, throughout history, what I’m doing rather is characterizing my co-workers who suddenly turned from agnostic/none into hard-core haytin’ fundamentalists.
I think Una Persson is on the right track (snark not-withstanding). Parents want social settings for their children where there are moral leaders and a safe environment. Church’s often provide this experience - the dogma is sort of a byproduct.
Also, many people feel an obligation to raise their children in the religion they were raised in, even if they no longer believe in it strongly (or at all). My fiancee is like this - only nominally Hindu but wants her kids to be Hindu. I think this stems from the OP’s final point - our primary example for child-rearing is our own parents so it is logical we would mimic their behaviors even if our beliefs don’t match theirs.
Are we limiting this just to religion (please, let’s not) or other areas as well?
I’d argue that I only SEEM more dogmatic around my kids because toddlers aren’t capable of processing lengthy statements and lack the neural development to make accurate risk assesments. So, just now, I said very firmly to my daughter, “NO! You may not touch the paper shredder EVER! It’s only for grownups!”
Now, do I really think that a 15 year old can’t operate a paper shredder safely? Of course not. But my daughter’s world is still divided into “kids” (which means anyone shorter than about 4 feet) and “grown-ups” (which includes her older brother.) Would I be absolutely opposed to her feeding a sheet in the shredder with hawk-eye supervision, or opposed to her touching the wastebasket portion of the shredder? Probably not. But I know her impulse control and discrimination isn’t that good yet - shredding one sheet with Mama could easily turn into shredding her blanket when I’m in the other room. Touching the wastebasket could turn into pushing the whole thing over on the floor. Better a dogmatic, absolutist “no” than a modified one which gets us both into trouble.
Do they? And how?
I don’t think I’ve changed much in my personal views of religion since I had kids (or because of the fact that I’ve had kids). I’ve always tried to be pretty open with my kids with regard to religion and beliefs. I expect my kids to make their own decisions over time with regard to what works for them on an emotional level, and I’m not against disagreeing with them when they pick up on more dogmatic attitudes. My standard reply is, “Well, that’s what some people believe. Not everyone believes the same thing. What do you think about that?”
Parents worry, that’s my experience, and a lot of the time that makes people fall back to familiar things. The saying is that people get more conservative as they age, too.
My parents are not religious, and never were as far as I know, but they had a big problem when my brother and I told them that we wanted out of the whole religion thing. We didn’t believe in it, no more going to school on the weekends, leave us out of it. That lead to some big fights over the next few years. Looking back at it, I think they felt like they were failing their parents or their culture in addition to the morality issue.
I was raised Catholic and opted out around 16 years of age. I have pretty much considered myself agnostic from that point.
Now at 37 and my son is 1-1/2.
I’m not changing my beliefs or ways but I wouldn’t mind allowing my son to get some exposure to religion as he grows so he knows what it’s all about.
I’m not going to start sending him to Sunday school but if the retired Lutherns next door invite him to church and he want’s to go that’s up to him.
Or if we’re visiting my parents and he want’s to see a Catholic mass I have no problem with it.
Even if it was a non-Christian service Muslim, Jewish, or otherwise it’s be nice if he saw what went on.
(no Scientology though until he can get a job and pay for it himself)
I’m with WhyNot, let’s not make it just about religion. When I became a parent I had to start making a lot more important decisions, decisions that affect other people and a baby at that! When you have to make a call and you’ve only got a few seconds you tend to fall back on what you’ve heard, what seemed to work for your parents, I believe anyway. Later on, when you realize that your parents actually knew a thing or two, you can start to fall into the same patterns.
“Hey Dad, can I play with the chainsaw?”… Ummm. “NO” is out of my mouth before I have had a chance to decide about the proper, modern parent approach to the question. Is that dogmatic?
“Hey Dad, where did Granddad go when he died?” … Uhhh, well, it would be nice to have a ready answer. I am not a believer so the answer got to be long and overly heavy for the tone of the question. So, I can see why folks fall back on the classics.
Agnostics suddenly turn into creationists?
I can see someone who was pretty apathetic about their church getting into it more when they have kids, but actually going from not believing in God to a specific Christian subset has got to be an awfully unusual reaction to having children. Of course, some people do convert, whether they have kids or not.
Well, agnosticism is distinctly closer to believing than atheism is, given that some agnostics, while willing to admit their own lack of knowledge (i.e., belief), are open to the possibility of a supreme being existing that they don’t know about. The ease of transformation is certainly plausible, particularly if you’re talking of intelligent design as opposed the biblical version of creation.
Stronger agnostics may find the jump a bit more difficult as their belief is that the very existence of such a being, is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, no human explanation would be sufficient – scientific, textual or experience-based.
From my POV, I think it would be more surprising to see an atheist become a creationist.
Security, ideologically and otherwise, seems to become more desirable; maybe in response to the ‘unformed’ all-over-the-map nature of children (or perceived as such anyway).
There was a quote in the* ER* I watched on the DVR last night (I don’t know when it aired - probably last week). The sweet young non-denominational chaplain got her ass handed to her by a tortured old guy wracked with guilt who wanted to know how to gain absolution for his sins before he died and went to hell. She used all her seminary training to try to gently suggest that maybe he needed to find a new focus in life, maybe God wanted him to forgive himself, but accepting forgiveness is harder than accepting guilt, etc. He lost it, screaming at her to get out and take her namby-pampy New Age bullshit with her.
Later, as she was crying outside the hospital, Dr. Pratt went to talk to her, and she said something to the effect of:
Made me think of this thread. Parenting is about 20% crisis and 70% perceived crisis. Sometimes our kids need answers, they need rules and they need certainty. And a parent who understands that and provides it comes off as dogmatic, even if later on we have a sit-down and a gentle, “So what do *you *think?” talk in private.
Go to your room!
To me, “dogmatic” and “religious” are totally different animals, which one are we talking about?
Many people sound more “dogmatic” (they affirm stuff without an explanation and no subtlety) because, as WhyNot said, you just can’t explain things to a toddler with that much detail. Some don’t just express themselves more dogmatically to the kid, but let it seep into their actual thinking and into relationships with other people; why? I think it’s because, well, black-and-white is always easier than scales of grey (let’s not get into color subtleties) and after 8-10 hours at work and a few more with the kid your brain is in no shape for delicacy.
Some people become more religious because religion was a positive part of their education, or because the education they’ve chosen involves religion. My SiL wanted to bring the kid to “the public school with the best afterschool program,” but it turns out that the best afterschool program belongs… to the nuns’ where myself and my bros went. So, since the kid is going to the nuns, and since SiL is supposed to be a Catholic, and since the kid’s Dad is a practicing Catholic (who used to go to Mass in the week but not on weekends bc SiL wouldn’t get out of bed in time for it), and since the kidlet starting asking what the Nativities that had suddenly popped in everybody’s living rooms were about… they’re now going to Kids’ Mass every Sunday.
I thought we were talking about dogmatism in general, not religion. So I’m confused.
We seem to be having two different, simultaneous discussions going on, due to a lack of agreement about what “dogmatic” means or what, exactly, the OP wants to discuss.