Well, let’s not go overboard here: it may be among the less successful in sticking to its ideals of supporting democracy or human rights, but lots of countries don’t even try – or pretend to try.
Odd…I remember Noriega as a dictator who refused to recognize the results of an election that unseated him…not as a democratic leader, and something less than stable (morally, politically and possibly mentally).
I’ll grant you Guatemala. I’ll have to look up some of the other stuff, but I don’t remember us blocking free elections to create a democratic Vietnam.
You’re right. I had confused the fact that Panama was holding elections (while he played puppet master behind the scenes) with there actually being a representative democracy.
The rest of the countries I noted, however, had their governments overthrown. (When it was obvious that a referendum on the new government for Viet Nam was going to be won by Ho Chi Minh, the U.S.-installed Diem refused to abide by the Geneva Accords to permit nation-wide voting.)
Shodan:
There are strains of anti-Americanism in Europe that view the US in precisely this manner, especially in France. They don’t originate from the fact that US is "the last one standing,"though, because they pre-date the end of the Cold War. Over here one has to be careful to separate that kind of anti-American sentiment from a reasoned critique of US foreign policy.
I imagine the reasons people hate America vary quite a bit from place to place. I asked my Swedish wife – who doesn’t hate America, by the way – why people hate America. She replied immediately, “Bush.”
In a broader sense, she cited America’s tendency to push other nations around, its history of “exceptionalism,” and its overwhelming cultural influence. Regarding this last, she sees a bit of a love-hate relationship: Swedes both love it and, at the same time, feel a bit overwhelmed and intimidated by it. So they also hate it.
Sort of like a big brother complex.
And you still wonder why people hate America? :rolleyes:
BTW, in your mind, is there any limit to the above reasoning? e.g. would you ever say “You know, reducing banana prices by 5 cents just isn’t worth killing 1,000,000 people in Laos”, or would you just shrug and say “thems the rules”?
If the US ever did kill 1,000,000 people in Laos in order to effect a small reduction in prices in some goods, even if it makes sense from a ‘self interest’ point of view, do you not see why people around the world would hate the US for this?
“But the US never killed 1,000,000 people for a 5 cent reduction in banana prices!” you will say. However, the level of death and destruction that the US has caused over the past several decades, for what many people believe were small-by-comparison gains, has actually occured and is what is fueling the hatred towards the US.
That, and the non-nonchalance of Americans when they say stuff like “Disrupting a peaceful economy for better banana prices at home sounds crazy, but thems the rules”.
Finally, in case you are still wondering why people hate the US, think about why people hated the Nazis during WWII. According to your logic, they “didn’t do anything wrong”. They were just looking out for their own national self-interest when they started invading all of Europe. Why should we ask them to put other countries’ interests before their own? Since when has a nation implicitly been expected to act against its own interests for the benefit of another?
Oh, great.
Thanks, Polerius. Now we’ve lost the argument.
Bin Laden has a political agenda as do all leaders of men. It is the ACT of terrorism that is abhorrent, not the differing of global paradigms. I want to know why America is specifically wrong, not why poor nations hate rich powerful ones. Does a reason exist?
cowgirl, the UN can’t even split a restaurant bill correctly. Every nation has an agenda, and make no mistake, those nations that disagree with American actions have stepped on toes. “what we think” is no moral authority.
The one man (or woman) to focus on the OP, you’re my hero ITR champion!
As the first nation with such a founding document can the world give us a break with details (you know, prevention of Cold War nuclear proliferation and such)
So America is MORE repressive of certain racial and religious groups?
The best answer yet.
The Noam Chomsky/Dinesh D’Sousa hate-America whine chorus wrings their hands at this. I sneer in their general direction. People adopt Western culture (to the extent that they do) because of its attractive features. If they want their own cultures to be competitive, they need to work on making them more attractive.
Duh. Everybody views the world through the lens of their own culture.
This is the one item on the list that has some validity for some specific cases. Still, one out of three ain’t good.
Forgive me for jumping in without having digested the thread.
Firstly, I think it’s clear that there always has been a thread of anti-Americanism in European (especially French) thought.
But there is another, more justified, kind of anti-Americanism, more properly known as criticism of America. America needs to decide if it is a ‘normal state’ acting openly in self-interest, or some kind of generous rescuer that goes out of its way to help others. The real problem comes when the roles get mixed:
[ol]
[li]If you are a normal state - fine, overthrow governments in your imperial backyard. That’s what all the other normal states do. You will be criticised for this just like all the other governments.[/li][li]Or be generous and let them flourish, even when it goes against your direct interests.[/li][/ol]
What gets my goat is when the two are combined - America acts ruthlessly, and sensibly, and then acts like the rest of the world should be grateful or something. Any criticism is written off as anti-Americanism.
So America imprisons its enemies in Guantanamo bay. Fine, don’t tell me Britain wouldn’t do the same, or just put a bullet in their heads (think James Bond - he’s basically shown as a murderer for the UK govt). But what gets me is when these two responses are conflated:
- we’re America! we can do what we like! (true enough, economically and militarily)
- how dare you criticise us! We do only good! We’re the city on the hill!
You can’t have it both ways.
And about “you can criticise George Bush but not me! I didn’t vote for him! blame him but not the American people”…
- he was re-elected by a huge popular vote majority
- you can’t say this and then boast of the superiority of “government by the people, of the people and for the people”.
zhongguorenmin
OK, I don’t feel like listing the ridiculous historical list that is the global mercantile casus belli. Rest assured, every European power (and plenty of Asian ones) are on it for everything from opium to pineapples.
And finally, I have always believed a rational argument is in a downward spiral when Nazi’s are mentioned.
People seem to be saying it’s just peachy to be a hegemon. If you are a firm believer in realpolitik, well, that’s your joy I suppose. But then don’t make like you’re all moral and nicey-nice and nothing but goodness personified. If you plan to overtake the Middle East and change it by force to your way of thinking, say so in so many words. Don’t pretend you’re saving Iraqis from a brutal leader or saving the world from ‘terism’ or anything noble. Be upfront about your brutality. I think the hypocrisy is what tanks it for me. It’s bad enough to be brutal bullies, but then to pretend you’re puppy-petting baby-kissing church-goin’ saints is vile.
Steve MB, did you read the entire OP except where I said:
and then proceeded to LIST my questions.
I wonder if there ever has been massive slaughter without a pleasant justification, you know ‘white mans burden’ and all.
Irrelevant. That’s the “Jimmy does it too !” defense; it generally doesn’t work with Mommy, and it shouldn’t work with anybody else.
If America does nasty things, it should be hated for them. If other powers do evil things, they should be hated for those things. Pointing out that other people have black hats doesn’t give you a white hat; sometimes there are no good guys.
As for me, I think America deserves more hatred than most other countries simply because it does more damage; I don’t really care if that’s because it is a worse country or just because it’s more powerful. Dead is dead, suffering is suffering.
As an Australian, personally, I don’t hate America/ns. I love the fact that we’re allies, I support the war (throw hard pointy objects at me now), I love the culture, etc etc ad nauseum. BUT, the one thing that gets me about Americans is the fact that so many of you (not Dopers, speaking generally here) is the fact that you know so little about the world outside your borders. For instance, the absolute piss-take of an ABC (Australian, not US) TV show that had a guy walking around the streets of a US city convincing Americans that the Great Wall of China, the Eiffel Tower, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, the Taj Mahal (one bloke said he’d never seen the building before, ‘where’s it at?’), and even your own Mount Rushmore were actually Australian icons and did they want to book a holiday to see them all? This was an episode of “The Chasers War on Everything” and you can probably download.
I love the US’s technology and your generosity to other nations. I also love the fact that we’re two nations founded largely on the fact that Britain sent it’s convicts to live in a place far far away, who instead found a Utopia. I love the fact that our founders colonised and survived amazing conditions to ensure the prosperity of a nation. We are both relatively ‘young’ countries, in terms of history - but what a history! I don’t hate America - I love it! (and I’ve never been there). Sorry - bit of a rant.
I prefer to call it ‘putting American foreign policiy into historical context’.
And if there are no good guys, no one has the right to call anyone else bad…that’s what I’m saying.
I agree with you on this. Many people excuse all the stuff their own country does or did in the past, and then turn around and point to similar things other countries do and say “those guys are evil”.
However, you are confusing two things
- Being justified in calling another country evil
- Feeling hatred towards another country
If the Mongol hordes are invading your country and killing your people, even though you can rationalize “hey other countries invade all the time, the Mongols are just doing what is in the best self interest of their country, so I am not justified in calling them evil”, it is only logical for you to hate them for killing your family and destroying your country.
It would be insane for the Mongols to say “Why do you hate us? We are just doing what is in our best interest, just as others have done in the past.”
What matters is what’s happening now.
No, if there are no good guys then we should suicide as a species. If we are the sort of devil-species that you claim then we should not exist.