Gum! you damn anti-Semite!!
If you really want to know Paul. Am not Jewish. Neither do I want to be.
I mostly want to discuss Hannah Arendt’s writings. Seems I’m all alone in that. sniff sniff. I’m clannish all by my lonely self.
hehehehe 
I promise to get a copy of Hannah Arendt’s book, okay?
Hey Jack, I’m curious what you actually thought of my cites, especially the analysis by Rabbi Wein. We’ve heard interesting comments from Dseid, Tom, and others, but you seem to have dismissed or negated the very possibility that many Jewish people apparently have no problems describing either themselves or their culture/religion as varyingly insular, either at the present or in a historical context or both (even “tenaciously” insular, according to Wein).
I won’t repeat again the previous arguments you haven’t yet given a fair treatment, as I think anyone with some independent thinking can make up their own minds one way or the other at this point; but I do wonder if you think those Jewish people I quoted in various formal or informal writings were suffering some kind of disconnect, or if you thought they might be talking about something other than slurs? Because (I hate to repeat it) I certainly was. And I had good reason, having read such arguments and treatments in the past.
Well. Some comments I found while test-driving the Google function Dseid introduced:
This paper on the historical Jewish ghettos of Venice distinguishes between “the insularity of the Ashekenzim in the Ghetto Nuovo” and “the Levantines’ immersion in Venetian material culture” (it is a paper focusing more on architecture than history, but seems to be referring unequivocally to cultural practices).
this abstract is interesting:
Certainly seems to me to be discussing attempts among specific Jewish groups to overcome barriers that might legitimately be called insular. I can’t access the full article though, as is the case for most of these papers.
This abstract discusses the missionary experiments in the first half of the 20th century by Reform Jews, and says that Jews “won the intellectual respect of many, although certainly not all, Americans. Jews thrived in post-World War II America because they had learned, through a variety of means, to explain themselves, their practices, beliefs, and identities to non-Jews.” Again we have a theme of “emerging”.
DSeid, can’t participate in the new thread as I am about to travel and am limiting myself to this one until it dies, but there is material in this thread for the new one that you could transfer. In particular the trends that may be distilled from a present reading would seem to be secular Jews at one end being most open, and the rigidly Orthodox at the other; with a clear trend in very recent history to higher intermarriage (and thus “ethnic dispersion”) rates among secular Jews (or at least documented primarily among them).
Originally posted by gum
This is what I was referring to. The Pilgrims had a similar issue to consider when they left England for the Netherlands: The Dutch accepted them practicing their own religion, but the adult Pilgrims realized that their children would become “more Dutch than English”–losing their identity altogether.
dougie_monty, I do see the issue–and it is one that Catholic immigrants to the U.S. and the Amish of the Midwest have wrestled with (and continue to do so). I was simply puzzled by what I understood to be your comment that someone on this thread had proposed (from the outside) that efforts be made for the Jews to be assimilated. The discussion to which you linked is the natural internal discussion that each group faces when a minority group attempts to be accepted by the surrounding majority.
I agree that the issue is a pertinent one for any group (and that there have, indeed, been outsiders (e.g.,the late and not exactly lamented John John) who have suggested that the Jews would be accepted if they just stopped being Jewish).
Damn… I guess you’ve not encountered the type of people who care about truth and justice for all ‘groups’?
See though, not having destructive steryotypes does indeed contribute to social justice. And, would you have been so suprised if there was a five page thread debating whether or not, oh, say, african americans were more “criminalish” than “clannish”? (yes, I know criminalish isn’t a word)
Yes.
It perpetuates the masks of Self and Other.
And history has shown us that cultures feel justified in doing some nasty shit to The Other.
After all, they’re not like us.
Except it’s not true, and it attempts to make Jews fungible.
My family certainly wasn’t aided by the Jew tang clan.
I’m sure many others weren’t.
Are we to differentiate between orthodox Jews, conservative, reform, reconstructionist?
Is a Jew from Tel Aviv the same as a refusnik from Russia?
It’s a slur that’s been used to justify murder.
These indeed are the subjects I wanted to bring into that new thread (that appears to rapidly approaching falling off the page). The differences between aculturation - acquiring the tools to function within a society and to interact with the ideas of the society while preserving an independent identity - and assimilation - being absorbed within a society and losing the independent identity. I do not see that assimilation and insularity are opposite poles. Obviously minority religious status has a significant impact on the form of integration, as does the nature of the role that the majority religion plays in the public sphere (even if the role of religion is played by militant secularism).
But I’ll not bump it. I’ll just sulk with Rune and his Hannah Arendt writings.
Well, there was a case in point–an extreme case in point: Adolf Eichmann, himself Jewish. He carried that concept to its (ghastly) conclusion. 
And British statesman Benjamin Disraeli would not have been allowed to serve in Parliament–let alone be Prime Minister–unless he renounced his religion. (Felix Mendelssohn and Heinrich Heine did likewise, but for different reasons.)
Eichmann was not Jewish. I don’t know where you got that from.
Do you really think that a Jew could have been one of the highest leaders in the Nazi regime?
There were some Jews in the Nazi army and SS…there’s an interesting book about this, I forget what it’s called. But there were no Nazi leaders with any Jewish blood, as far as I know. Whether or not Hitler was part-Jewish is debateable (a lot of people insist that it’s true, because it’s more appealing to believe a dubious fact if it adds more mystery and intrigue to a well-known and infamous historical figure.)
Is being “clannish” really a destructive stereotype? As far as I’m concerned all it means is “looking out for your own.” Whether the Jews actually are “clannish,” I don’t know. Some are, some aren’t.
Disraeli didn’t convert in order to take a seat in Parliament. He converted to Christianity along with the rest of his family when he was 13, after his father had a fairly long and bitter dispute with his synagogue (Bevis Marks, the oldest synagogue in England) over money they said he owed them.
All right, all right…I acknowledge the correction about Disraeli.
Eichmann is another story. I stand by my statement since I got the information that he was Jewish from a German national who served in the Nazi Army. I myself had found it difficult to countenance the fact that a Jew could go along with Hitler’s monstrous notions.
Eichmann was raised as a Lutheran, and was an atheist as an adult. He wasn’t Jewish, and didn’t have any Jewish ancestry (The SS made you prove you didn’t have any Jewish ancestors dating back to at least 1750). As far as I know, no one except for your friend even claimed that Eichmann had Jewish ancestry.
Are you sure you’re not thinking of Heydrich? There were unfounded rumors that he had Jewish ancestors. There’s no evidence that that’s true, though.
No, this German specifically referred to Eichmann–and he never mentioned Herydrich; and I have no idea who Heydrich was. Kurt knew that I knew who Eichmann was–same as Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler.
Ok, then I’m saying that Kurt was wrong, unless either you or he can provide evidence to back up your statement.
From the Eichmann trial transcript:
Well, Captain, considering that documentation you presented in your subsequent post, I would have to back down. As for Kurt, I can’t discuss this with him–he died about 15 years ago. I confess to having nothing else to offer in the matter.–dougie_monty