Not to speak for mswas, but a telling example of what I think he/she is getting at can be found in the Geto Boys’ song, “Damn, It Feels Good to be a Gangsta”:
It depends on your perspective. Bill Gates is a gangsta. Donald Trump is a gangsta. Karl Rove is a gangsta. Gangsta behavior when you have no money might come down to fisticuffs, but when you have money and higher class status, you are ruthless and cunning with your lawyers. All successful gangstas are smart. Not all of them have access to the same resources that the rich, or middle class, do. Surely it’s not hard to see how the same traits that one could admire in a political hero - ruthlessness, smarts, single-mindedness and purpose - can exist in people who go about reaching their goals in a more “gritty” way.
I see your point, but at the same time I think I’d be a bit insulted if anyone were to refer to me as a ‘politician’. The first thing that would come to my mind would be all the common traits of a politician that you didn’t list.
I could in theory say it’s a matter of perspective whether or not you should be insulted if I were to say you were ‘straight-up serial!’, like a serial killer, because I find you to be a fastidious, goal-oriented, methodical person. Those are positive traits, but before choosing the mascot of a serial killer I would consider seriously what peoples’ reaction to the term might be. I expect rational people would not feel the need to dig below the surface of what they know a serial killer to be, looking for his good sides. Why did the hip hop community not consider the same with so violent a term as Gangsta/gangster? I suspect because it espouses violence, and anyone white or black who does that is someone who will not get any respect from me. The concept that I should look for the good in a gangster reminds me of the T-shirt that says ‘Yeah, but what about all the *good *things Hitler did!’. I mean, does it really make sense?
miscue If you live in the sort of environment where you see the predator and prey relationship up close and personal you want to be the predator. It’s better to be a predator and have the ability to direct your predatory actions than it is to be prey and only have the ability to run from the predators. When you live on the street the predator/prey relationship is very palpable. In the black community there is a victim mentality, they are constantly the ‘prey’ in a social sense. “If you see a cop, Warn a Brother.” From that perspective all power is a matter of predator/prey. If you are a member of the upper class, you are like the leader of the herd. You are not the weak gazelle that the lion picks off. You are the last one the lion would go after generally. So being a Gangsta means that you aren’t going to be picked off by the predators unless that predator feels that you are a direct threat to their survival.
From a “white” culture perspective, there is an emphasis on herd behavior, not standing out, not being predatory, serving a vital role in the community that is nondescript but beneficial to the whole. Gangsta culture is not an open part of this, even though it is implicit in the power structure. Part of this is that the social pressure is based around not being a threat to the status quo, so you don’t want to be a gangster, or at least you don’t want to be openly perceived as a gangster, because it makes you threatening to the herd, but you want it to be implicit showing that you are the proper alpha that can provide protection. “I am a war president.”
Gangsta is another term for ‘Silverback’. You will sometimes hear the word ‘Silverback’ thrown around in ghetto culture, meaning that you are a potential alpha male. It’s all about mammalian dominance patterns where the ability to level force on a direct level is how your virulity is measured.
Gangsta culture is very prevalent among investment bankers. The movie “Boiler Room” is a great amalgamation of a Hip Hop gangsta culture and the Wall Street Gangster culture.
The basic ethos is that opportunities are not given they are taken, and that if you want anything in this world you have to be willing to reach out and grab it. Listen to Eminem’s “Lose Yourself” or watch his movie 8 Mile, which is a fairly optimistic take on the notion.
The movie portrays the gangsta culture through the lens of ‘beat battles’ in underground clubs. It’s all about not wanting to be at the bottom of the pile free to be stepped on by the rest of society.
I think mswas draws it up nicely in the previous post.
I’d just add this. What if we use the term “warrior” instead? Because they’re basically interchangeable. And it’s not as if these people are just picking on weaker people. I would argue that such behavior makes you a bully. But someone who stands up to authority (like the police) and doesn’t take their shit, someone who demands to be treated with respect and as an equal, would get this kind of rep.
Gangsta behavior is ruthless and driven. It often includes violence but not necessarily. To use an example, Ice-T is highly regarded as a gangsta - an O.G., original gangsta. He was probably involved in some criminal activity when he was younger, but AFAIK, as long as he’s been an MC/actor, the guy has never been arrested, nor has he ever had a run-in with the law. His hustle is making money and projecting an image. He doesn’t have to go around smacking people to earn cred; he already has it.
GWB easily has more blood on his hands than any two-bit hustler in the hood, but somehow people see his positive attributes and rationalize the violence. Same thing with gangstas. People are drawn to the Robin Hood aspect and glamorize it, whilst ignoring the ugly side. It’s what we do more or less to any heroes in our society. If someone said, “I really admire this president,” you probably wouldn’t look at them with any sort of incredulity. Presidents are often the most admired people in polls, etc. But in the day-to-day dealings a president can bomb a village of civilians, fire workers in an entire industry (think Reagan dispatching the air traffic controllers), grant clemency to criminals… the list goes on. But there’s a lot of rationalization to defend the “bad” actions of the president.
The last point I will make refers to the fact that in low-income communities, there is often a profound lack of “order.” Social services aren’t efficient or in existence. Things that middle-class folks do, like call the police when a crime takes place, aren’t always done in the same way. When I call the police in my middle class neighborhood, they are prompt and friendly. In some communities, they show up when they feel like it, and they treat the people like shit. So if the goal is to prevent crime or secure one’s property, they might go about it in a different way, but the ultimate goal is the same.
There is no virtue in lying to yourself and thinking it’s possible to not do any of the stomping. Our entire system is based upon taking from somewhere.
Gangsters often provide a sort of order in chaotic situations. An area dominated by a particular gang can often have reduced crime. Gangsters have responsibilities to the people under them, and their level of success depends on their ability to manage conflicts of interest.
We will agree to disagree, I guess. I see a huge difference between the various types of “taking from somewhere” that you talk about- perhaps you don’t. That’s cool.
I laugh at people who demand respect without doing a thing to earn it. There’s a great exchange between Danny Glover and a young gun-toting hood in Grand Canyon about how the gun is the only thing that gets the young man “respect.”
Civil, fair treatment should be afforded to everyone. But respect must be earned- it cannot be issued or handed out.
It’s the economy. If you are willing to pay a higher premium for a good or service, then the price goes up and you are more likely to get that good or service over someone either unwilling or unable to pay that premium. If the person who cannot afford it objects and tries to change the disparity by physical means, the cops will beat him up for you. For instance, the cost of produce is cheaper for you because some gangsters in Washington subsidize the food market in the US, thus keeping third world countries from being able to compete. This is one of the main contentions in the issue of so-called ‘free trade’.
It’s just another extension of ‘Kill one man you’re a murderer, kill a million and you are a hero.’, you play the game of the system, you reap its benefits, and many millions are killed in order to maintain the status quo that you enjoy. Hip Hop culture is about people who might even live in the same town as you but fall into the shadow cast by the system rather than the side that is sunning itself.
Certainly how an individual lives their life determines the quality of their character, no one is disputing that. We’re just trying to explain to you why the culture developed as it did.
A good movie to watch would be Malcolm X, it follows him as he moves from the thug life into the militant revolutionary life and on into a social justice life. He was definitely a ‘gangsta’, but he evolved morally until he was finally murdered by his own compatriots. There is a great speech about how those ‘respectable’ people in the Masons and Rotarians etc… wouldn’t accept him into their club. If one such as Malcolm X could make it into those clubs how might things be different? Those good ole boy organizations today will accept black men, and so we have an entirely different paradigm, but they were the last holdouts, with integration not really occurring until the 80s and 90s.
You recognize that the hood Danny Glover was talking to was a charicature and does not apply to all the people within Hip Hop culture correct?
Definitely, and that’s one of the central tenets of Hip Hop culture. All I am hoping to avoid is the stereotyped Hip Hop culture that has become mainstream. Hip Hop isn’t only about 50 cent, there are a lot of artists with very positive messages whose voices are being drowned out by the cacophony of pop gangsters. Judging Hip Hop by thug life chic would be the same as judging Punk by Blink 182 and Green Day.
Try rereading the posts ,several times if you have to and I would very much prefer it if you didn’t try to put words into my mouth or tell me what MY opinion is.
Thankyou.
Where did I put words in your mouth, friend? You say their speech sounds as though something is happening, yet you never describe what it is in their speech that gives you that impression.
By the way, are you familiar with The Pit? Depending on your answer to my question about the speech, maybe you’ll get a(n) (re)introduction to it.
Had a look in the pit but no result ,no doubt you’re much too busy at the moment .
Also I’d be very grateful if you didn’t call me friend ,I used to be a soldier so we dont seem to have anything in common if we’re being honest here .
So, no answer yet? You may wish to re-read my previous post, which you quoted, and attempt to comprehend that I indicated a pit thread may ensue depending on your answer to my question.
By the way, I was also a Soldier. I then made the better choice and enlisted in the US Navy, from which I retired.
Lust4Life, just knock it off. Waiting the better part of a week just to come back and try to restart a feud is pretty counterproductive as a human, doing it in this Forum is bad judgment. If you must have a brawl, open your own Pit thread, otherwise just drop it.
I would guess that after this much time, Monty is no longer that interested in keeping it going and I would expect that he would not return to this thread to follow up on your dispute, in any event.
Apparently, I need to preview to see who has snuck in while I was typing before I hit Submit.
At any rate, the current dispute is personal and off topic, so you would both be advised to take it elsewhere. (I think you’d both be better off just dropping it, but as long as you take it to e-mail or the Pit, that is not my concern.)
[ /Moderating ]
Flat answer: The clothes look silly and the speech patterns sound stupid (uneducated) to me. They are trying to emulate the more “menacing” image of black “thugs” and not doing it, because popular culture has tried to teach me that a blac (and Hispanic, more recently) man dressed in that way and speaking in that way is a dangerous person and will beat, rob, and kill me, a white guy, for no reason at all.
I’m not intending any type of racial “profiling” here, just giving what I think might be the snap answer to this from most people. Or maybe just me.
I don’t understand how respecting a primitive lifestyle is necessary in this day in age. We’ve become civilized whether you want to agree with that or not. We’re living in modern civilization. We have defied constantly fighting with natural selection. So why are these idiots still living a primitive lifestyle?