Why do people insist that the market will produce new jobs?

Whenever the subject comes up of how automation is eliminating blue collar jobs, and has eliminated a huge number of pink and white collar ones as well, inevitably someone claims that “the market” will produce new jobs.

The problem is, this belief has no basis in fact and is unsupported by any hard evidence. The market, the capital behind the market, and the men and women controlling the capital all have no particular interest in producing new jobs. If new jobs are going to be created, they’ll be created where labor is cheapest - in China or other low wage countries.

I’ve come to realize that this is not a recent trend. It started a while ago. Pretty much at the birth of the human race.

Farming food was a labor-saving measure. A handful people collecting seed and planting rows of crops was far more efficient than the huge number of people needed to gather food in the wild.

The domestication of animals was another labor-saving measure. The amount of time one person would spend caring for a pen full of domesticated pigs is far less than the number of hours required for hunters with spears to take down the same number of wild boars. The plow and fence freed everyone else who would have hunted or farmed to enter into other trades, and invent new ones.

But as these new trades entered the machine age, innovations help reduce the number of people required for the trade. Consistently, the labor force produces the same amount of product with fewer people, or greater amounts of product with the same number of people.

My rule of thumb is this: If it can be automated, it will be. If it can’t be automated, but can be exported to a low wage country, it will be. Even good paying jobs that have formed the basis of the American middle class.

Take banking. When I was a kid, every bank had a large number of tellers. It was a decent paying job employing a large number of people. My ex-sister-in-law was a teller at a bank. I visited that bank recently to deposit some checks in my brother’s account. The area that used to have a dozen teller windows is now executive offices. To perform a walk-up transaction, I was directed to a small booth outside where I called one of the two remaining tellers via video monitor and sent in the checks via pneumatic tube. Two tellers handled the drive-through and walk-up. The bank has more customers than before, but the majority of the transactions are handled via automation. Automatic Teller Machines. Web. Text message. E-mail. Any aspect of banking that required human beings has either been automated as much as possible, or transitioned to a different method that requires less labor.

Retail in general has been moving in this direction for years. I’m not saying this hasn’t been good for consumers. Anyone who can use a computer regularly searches on-line for the best price and buys through a retailer’s web site - a method that employs a much smaller number of people per unit. Amazon employs a large number of people, but it is tiny when compared to the number of retail employees who would have been employed to sell the same amount via “brick and mortar” stores.

Some retail categories have been decimated. The city of Chicago has no large record stores anymore. Tower Records went bankrupt. The Virgin Megastore closed. There are a handful of independent record stores still managing to hang on, but what has happened in this retail category is a clear precursor to the rest of retail. Again, this has been an improvement for most folks. Web retailers have offered many more choices than even the biggest record store - with a dramatically smaller number of man-hours per sales unit. iTunes and other digital retailers can sell the same product over and over again with little additional labor beyond ripping the original CD and entering the data, and little cost beyond paying the artist.

Any physical store of sufficient size is either experimenting with self-checkout systems or has already converted a percentage of their checkout lanes. The same retailer pressure that caused manufacturers to place UPC bar codes on every product will result in universal adoption of RFID tags. We’re promised in the very near future the customer won’t have to manually scan every item, or even to take it out of their cart. A passive radio-frequency ID tag will also enable automated systems to stock shelves by providing location information by RF triangulation and precise dimensions and weight of each item.

From what I’ve seen, when a new product category is created it is manufactured using the latest techniques to minimize labor costs. Take the GPS category. Garmin’s headquarters are in Olathe, KS. But the official corporate offices are a mail drop in the the Cayman Islands to skirt US tax laws. I believe the engineering is done in India. The manufacturing is in China.

Not even the worst, lowest-paid jobs are immune to being automated. McDonald’s has been testing a touch-screen ordering system that will help minimize data entry errors - and jobs (The Burger King at Atlanta’s airport has this system already.) A recently built McDonald’s near me has a system that dispenses drinks, the cups on a conveyor line ready to go as soon as the car pulls up to the window of the drive through. Reportedly, they are even trying to develop a burger-flipping machines. In some markets, they have even out-sourced drive-through order taking to operators in locations with lower labor costs.

Even the handful of jobs that legally pay less than minimum wage, wait staff and agricultural workers, are automating. The California citrus growers associations are paying for the development of an automated system to harvest oranges - one machine that performs a 3D scan of the whole tree identifying the location and ripeness of each orange, the second to follow this 3D map and harvest the fruit with a vacuum system. Not even the fact that fruit pickers can be paid only $2.20 an hour will prevent this from happening. Once you have a machines to do a particular job, that job will continue to be done by machine. Few farmers are going to abandon their combine harvester in favor of manually picking corn.

There are few jobs outside of managerial, creative and personal services that can’t be automated.

Take truck driving. Long distance trucking has been a reasonably decent paying job. But search for the “DARPA Grand Challenge”. The US military has decided that 33% of all their vehicles need to be capable of driving themselves to a particular location by 2015. In order to accomplish this, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration has had teams from companies and universities competing for large cash prizes to develop self-driving vehicles. This has pushed the field of real-world computer vision systems further in a few years than it had in decades before. Earlier competitions have been staged in the desert, with competing vehicles having to maneuver around parked cars, drive under bridges, read road signs, tell the difference between a tumbleweed and a boulder. In the most recent competition the vehicles have had to pass all tests while following all California driving laws. I believe an upcoming competition will involve a race, in live traffic, between Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

Some elements of this technology are in current production cars. Automatic parallel parking. Adaptive Cruise Control that maintains a fixed distance. If a Humvee will be able to autonomously drive to a destination through an urban environment by 2015, how long will it take for Kenworth and Mac to bring this technology to US highways?

How many jobs will be eliminated when UPS and FedEx adopt automated driving systems? They don’t need a Asimo-like robot to be able to carry packages into a business. The automated delivery vehicle will just phone the business to let them know when it will be outside for the pick-up or delivery, and a door will open to an isolated compartment to accept or deliver the packages. The businesses will accept this new model in the same way that US drivers have accepted pumping their own gas, booking their own travel, etc. UPS and FedEx will be able to charge less or at least avoid raising prices when they eliminate a big chunk of their labor costs.

And human labor is one of the few constant and (usually) increasing costs to businesses. Most businesses have implemented voice mail systems, or even more sophisticated systems. I’m writing this on an Amtrak train. I purchased my tickets via their “Julie” voice-response system. It asked and understood what city I was in, what city I was travelling to and the dates I wanted to travel. The “Julie” system probably cost quite a bit of money to develop, but I’m confident that development cost has been paid back in wages not paid to human operators.

I recently saw the film “Changeling”. It provides a good example of how evolves to eliminate jobs. Angelina Jolie plays a supervisor of telephone operators in the late 1920s to early 1930s. When the telephone system first appeared, every call required at least one operator to manually connect it, and there were thousands of people employed to do it. Direct dialing eliminated the majority of these jobs, and operators were only needed for long distance and directory assistance. Even that has been automated as much as possible, with the actual greeting and recitation of the number being done via computer voice. The current state of the art seems to be Google’s 1-800-GOOG-411 that provides free, completely automated business directory assistance. It works well, and employs a small number of programmers. Eventually, they’ll have residential number service, and the job of telephone operator will go the way of whalebone corset maker.

Construction trades have been another source of good-paying jobs. But materials and construction techniques have changed, principally to minimize labor. At the time of the turn of the previous century, walls were constructed by nailing thin strips of wood to wooden studs, then applying layers of cement and plaster. This was replaced with metal studs and plaster wallboard, and can be installed in a fraction of the time. Most industrial buildings used to be made of bricks, hand-laid in a process that took weeks. Now, most are “tilt-ups”, huge pre-cast slabs of concrete delivered to the site, set on end, tipped up into place and held together by the roof trusses and the other slabs in a process that can be accomplished in a few days.

Assuming the advances in computer vision generated by the DARPA Grand Challenge, how long before automated equipment is capable of completely building a typical industrial park building? I’ve got a good imagination and an inventive turn of mind (references on request) and can easily conceptualize machines that can accomplish each construction task - from the concrete work to the steel fabrication to the plumbing and electrical to wallboard installation, plastering and painting. Given how automated the job of producing the considerably more complex automobile has become, why should something as simple as a typical industrial park building be any trouble?

Given this evidence, why do people insist that the market will produce new jobs to replace all the old ones?

I have a feeling this thread will eventually get moved to GD.

Anyways, the following unemployment history since 1948 shows roughly (emphasize roughly) flat percentages.

http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

(For simplicity of the following question, let’s set aside the various data collection flaws of Bureau Labor Statistics.)

Why has the picture of the graphs not turned into a triangle (for example, increasing unemployment out to 40%) in light of all the technology automations for the last 60 years? I’d like to hear your theory why we’re at 6.5% instead of 40%+ in light of all the anecdotes you’ve listed.

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OP requests move to Great Debates.

Sure. Why not?

:stuck_out_tongue:

GQ > GD

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WAG: because the people saving all the money on labor need something to buy?

It seems to me that if a factory owner suddenly has a large sum of saved money on their hands, they can do three things:

A) Exchange it for goods or services. With services, that directly increases demand, and gives someone a job. For goods, increasing demand means that somewhere down the line, somebody gets a job making the goods.

B) Invest it, which means paying somebody to do a job, and hoping they’ll give you some money later.

C) Sit on it, which AFAIU doesn’t create new jobs, but is relatively uncommon. Bear in mind, that’s literal sitting on, not sending it to a bank, because they’ll go ahead and invest it.

I’m no economist, and I can’t speak for the outcome of C, but in either of the first two cases, new jobs are created, yes?

Because that’s what the market does. It has been proven to increase total wealth over time, and an increase in wealth causes an increase in spending. People spend to get other people to do stuff for them.

Why do you assume that jobs must be directly involved with production of goods? If robots end up controlling all factory and menial service jobs, then everyone will either control robots for a living or be involved with the arts or sciences. That sounds pretty good to me.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Or maybe the robots will be so productive, everything will be essentially free, Star Trek style. Remember, without scarcity, economic theories break down.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I do not know what universe you live in but in my world this has been said every time something new came along. Agricultural machinery were going to make everyone unemployed but somehow they found other things to do. The steam engine was going to cause great loss of jobs. The latest big fear, and I am old enough to remember it, was computers. Computers were going to mean the loss of jobs for accountants, bureucrats, etc. It was going to be terrible. It was going to be the end of the world. people would riot as they lost their jobs to a computer. Well, in my world none of those predictions happened and people found new things to do. All that machinery allowed them to do what they were already doing more efficiently and better and to do new things. I cannot see why China is any different. If it is more efficient for me to make things in China then it means I have capital and manpower to do more things here. China is no different from a computer or a steam engine: A more efficient way of doing things for us.

In summary: I do not buy your premise.

500 years ago, you would’ve been working on a farm. Today, a very small percentage of people work on farms. We can create a lot of food with very little people. So are those people who don’t work on farms, who represent the vast majority of the population in the industrialized world, out of work? Or did they find something else to do?

Modern society itself is the hard evidence you claim to be looking for.

Probably because they have noted that despite the destruction of millions upon millions upon millions of jobs over the last few centuries, most people today are employed. It’s a pretty noticeable long-term trend.

I don’t insist it. It seems to me that the percentage of the American population which performs essentially no productive work has grown over time and continues to grow.

This includes people who are retired (and idle); people who are in school; people who are trust fund babies; people who are institutionalized/incarcerated, etc. (I would count homemaking as productive work.)

If this trend continues, we could easily wind up in a situation where a large majority of the population is unemployed.

I think a couple of reasons are fairly obvious.

As long as we will be exchange goods or money for necessary goods and services, people will go out of their way to produce goods or money. This doesn’t mean they’ll all get jobs in factories or offices - quite a few of them will start a business of some kind, creating jobs for themselves and possibly others. Unless the economy is broken in a fundamental way by civil war, a real depression, famine, things like that, this by itself will already mean the % of unemployment will remain fairly low.

If technological advances (or lower wages somewhere else) make certain activities “too cheap” to do by hand, that just means that that particular job isn’t available anymore in that particular place. You’ll still need people to manage the technology, manage the overseas workers etc. And besides, look at the number of jobs the Chinese have created in the last couple of decades.

If whatever you’re now manufacturing cheaper is “essential” - like cars, energy, food - this now means that the price of essential goods and services will go down: cheaper food, cars & energy for everybody, which is good for all kinds of reasons, but it will also stimulate the growth of (new and old) businesses, probably increasing the number of available jobs.

Most of these large “transitions” do not happen painlessly. Yes it sucks that record stores are going extinct - for the record stores, and probably for the record companies too. But 120 years or so ago there weren’t any record stores or record companies. In 20 years time probably nobody will be buying CDs anymore. It’s much more efficient to just download the music (legally or not). One way or another this will probably kill off (or significantly shrink) most of the larger record companies too - but on the other hand, it has never been cheaper to release your own albums or start your own record company.

So you prefer a society where old people, children, sick people etc were forced to work? WTF??

For reasons expressed elsewhere, I will not engage with this poster.

Cite? This seems like a pretty ridiculous statement to make without any evidence whatsoever.

He said nothing of the sort. His implied belief that high unemployment is bad does not automatically mean that he sees the opposite extreme as good.

I mistakenly posted it in General Questions and requested a move.

The problem is that you are disregarding how various Administrations have cooked those numbers, and how they don’t reflect underemployment by people who wish they had full-time work.

The real unemployment rate buried in the Federal Government’s data tables, including discouraged workers and those who are considered marginally attached or working part-time because they cannot find full time work, is now 12.2%, the highest it has been in 15 years. This number is up 33% over the past 12 months.

Because there is no political benefit to admitting that unemployment has gone up. So the unemployment numbers only apply to people currently looking for work, and excluding those who have given up.

The problem is, this belief has no basis in fact and is unsupported by any hard evidence. The market, the capital behind the market, and the men and women controlling the capital all have no particular interest in producing new jobs. If new jobs are going to be created, they’ll be created where labor is cheapest - in China or other low wage countries.
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Well, several thousand years of economic history would tend to disagree with you. In general, societies that embraced technology and automation tended to thrive while societies that embraced protectionism tended to stagnate.

There is not a finite amount of work to be done. New inventions both create new jobs and new industries while freeing up labor to perform other tasks.

Let’s look at your examples:

Right. So 2/3 of the tribe didn’t just go unemployed, did they? As societies transitioned through different stages - hunter gatherer, agricultural, industrial, information - there were certainly a lot of change and there were a lot of economic winners and losers. However, overall output increased and resulted in higher standards of living for people as a whole (see Invisible Hand).

How “The Market” works in these situations is this. When you create a new society changing product. Lets say the automobile. First of all, you have the creation of entirely new industries that weren’t there before. That creates jobs. But you also have other industries becoming obsolete and failing (say buggy whip manufacturers). So what happens to all those buggy whip makers? Well, they are free to work on other things that society wants or needs. The most enterprising will not sit on their ass bemoaning the fact that their buggy whip factory laid them off (see Who Moved My Cheese). They will look for things that need doing and charge people to do it for them. Many will have so much work to do that they will hire others to help them.

Your rule of thumb is not entirely correct. It is not always economically advantageous to automate or outsource all jobs. It largely depends on whether capital or labor are less expensive in your country. Labor is very expensive in the US compared to other countries. But we also have a lot of capital and it’s relatively inexpensive for us to automate. Think of it as whether it is more efficient to hire one bulldozer or a hundred workers with shovels.

The problem is that you are thinking as if economic conditions are fixed. In fact nothing is fixed. That is why markets work. All markets are is method of communicating value between different products and services. There are so many products and services that it is impossible for any centralized entity to come up with those values without creating huge inefficiencies.

The problem with this is that the number of people owning businesses large enough to own displace large numbers of workers through automation or outsourcing is vanishingly small. How can a few thousand business owners spend enough to replace the spending power of millions of former employees?

AKA “Trickle-down Economics”. I didn’t believe there was anyone still around who believed in that.

No, not necessarily. New businesses may be created, but that doesn’t mean that US jobs are created. See Garmin above.

<shakes his head>

I thought I anticipated your reaction to those stats by asking you to “set aside the various data collection flaws of the BLS.”

What I’m trying to get you to think about and answer is why we are not at 40+% or even 99% unemployment. Since automation has been happening since the dawn of civilization, would that logic dictate that virtually everyone should be unemployed except for the folks that scrub the toilets?

Ok, so the govt lies about statistics. Even accounting for that, why are we not at 99% unemployment?

It doesn’t seem all that ridiculous to me.

Is the US prison population higher now than it was 50 or 100 years ago?

Is the percentage of the population which is in college higher now than it was 50 or 100 years ago?

Is the percentage of the population which is elderly and retired higher now than it was 50 or 100 years ago?

I claim that (1) the US prison population is higher now; (2) the US college population is higher now; and (3) the US elderly/retired population is higher now.

I will try to find cites for these issues if you like, but first . . . . are you seriously skeptical of my claim?

(I also am pretty confident that there are more institutionalized people and trust fund babies now than in the past, but I’m not sure I will be able to find cites.)