I think people are using the term irrational when they really mean illogical. The belief in God is completely illogical, as we can provide no tangible “proof”. There will not be anyone (sane, anyway) who’s going to walk up to you and say “hi, I’m God”. My logical mind leads me to discredit “heaven and hell”, and I think that perhaps “God” is only the mass of souls passed, certainly a force, but not a force that created me and/or the world. Moreso like a warm (mostly) oversight (?) of our lives. The “fear of God” was never instilled in me, but then again, I’m not nor was I ever, a Catholic. I consider myself an agnostic bordering on athiest.
I barely know where to start with this sentence. First of all, life is evidence for neither evolution nor design - we must find ways of demonstrably distinguishing the two. The evidence for evolution which is utterly lacking for design is the demonstration that the variation in isolated groups does yield new species, and the explanation provided by the fact that this mechanism has yielded new species throughout the 4 billion years of the fossil record. As for your lightning bolt strawman, evolution says nothing whatsoever about abiogenesis, but lightning bolts feature barely at all.
“Forever” is all the configurations of the universe. “The universe began with the Big Bang” is an equivalent sentence to “The ultra-compressed configuration called the Big Bang was how the universe was for all time before t=0.” One can say that the universe has been around forever (but has only expanded for 13.7Bn years).
People believe in God because they are persuaded by, or accept uncritically, one or more of the standard arguments (Anselm, Aquinas) for God’s existence, because the belief helps them to make sense of the world and their place in it, because God gives them a basis for their moral views and a sense of purpose in life, because of their own experiences of direct, personal contact with God, and because they enjoy the social life and identity that being part of a church, temple, or other community of worshippers gives them.
People don’t believe in God because they are persuaded by, or accept uncritically, one or more of the standard arguments (Epicurus, Leibniz, Hume) against God’s existence, because their view of the world and their place in it makes sense without God, because a rejection of the superstition of “Divine Judgement” and arbitary religious laws frees them to pursue a more satisfying and sensible moral code based on reason, because there is no evidence, either in their personal experiences, the reports of others, or the world as a whole, that cannot be explained naturalistically, and because they reject the many evils and injustices perpetrated by organized religion.
Now, if everyone could accept that their point of view is not the only valid one… 
Because some people are forever stuck in the concrete stage of development, and only “follow the rules” if they believe they’re under constant surveillance with threat of eternal punishment.
Hey, I found evidence.
He said so.
Oh ? And do you have any evidence that that actually works ? The people who claim to believe that seem to spend most of their time harming others; I see no evidence it improves anyones behavior.
That’s called “eliminating the competition”; it’s no different than any other theocracy.
First, any government is more powerful than God, because God is fictional. Second, if people are foolish enough to believe in God, the state simply identifies itself with that God; like the constant whining in America about how this is a Christian country. Third, it allows the government to be corrupted by religion.
Oh, please. Evolution has an enormous amount of evidence; ID - or any other form of creationism - has none. ID is nothing but an attempt by the Christians to force their lies into schools.
I’d like to go back 35 years to my philosophy classes and elaborate on this theme (and this, rather than science, I believe is the discipline that is required for these kinds of questions).
Reflect on the difference between the concepts of Something and Nothing. Everything that exists is Something. Nothing does not exist. Nothing is not the same thing as what is in your empty pocket, or the space between galaxies. Nothing is equivalent to non-existence.
A corollary of this is that Something cannot come from Nothing (this is not a proof, I recognize; proof requires probably more than the audience here would have patience for, so I am offering this merely as an assertion, which some will agree with and others won’t).
Also reflect on the concept of Time. The universe is not *in * time. Time is *in * the universe. Time is a concept that only has meaning when there are things that are changing. The concept of a time before the universe, i.e. before there was any Something that existed, clearly makes no sense (again, assertion not proof).
I believe this is the point that **SentientMeat ** is making above, I hope that this gives his point a little support.
I read Scientific American for fun, am addicted to the Science Channel and am fascinated by cosmology. Hawking’s Biref History of Time was fantastic.
However, I cannot hold with the idea that there was no input from a creator (call it God, Allah, Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever). A friend recommended The Case for the Creator and it helps to break down some of the arguments against that belief. The author’s other works on faith and Christ are excellent as well.
I see nothing wrong with someone saying that they believe in God. Over 85% of the world worships in some way with only 2.36% being athiests . Does that make the athiests delusional or irrational because they don’t believe something that the majority of the world does?
Along those same lines, 78% of Americans believe in Jesus in one form or another , so is it right for the remaining 22% to be so disparaging of the beliefs of the rest? You are not being forced to believe in what the majority does, so why are you so offended by our faith? Seeing a menorah on display in a public park doesn’t make me think a bunch of Hassidim are planning to kidnap me a perform a bris ;j :eek: .
Therefore make peace with your God whatever you conceive Him to be: Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin .
You are just displaying your ignorance. Show me anyone who thinks cells just appeared. Not all reproducing entities even today are cells - viruses are an example of something that is not. It is most likely that life began with a replicating molecule which “evolved” by being more efficient at replication, until it finally became RNA and later DNA.
Cells we see today, of course, have evolved for about a billion years also. There is plenty of evidence of the evolution of the cell.
Really, try to understand what you are discussing. Statements like “evolutionists think a lightning bolt created a cell” is why IDers and creationists get a reputation for ignorance.
As for deriving our laws from god - if you want to live in a country like that, I suggest you move to Saudi Arabia. The Constitution does not mention god, our laws are not derived from god, and suggesting that they should be is profoundly unAmerican in my opinion. I don’t think we need to stone anyone who works on the Sabbath, do you?
The religious right?
First, reality is not subject to popular vote. Second, all those worshipers disagree; with no reason to choose one or the other belief, it makes no sense to believe any. Third, atheists are not “delusional or irrational” because all the evidence is on our side. Fourth, there is the previously stated arguement that religiousity is genetic.
Yes. It’s a stupid, highly destructive belief system that has brought enormous suffering to the world.
I’m offended because it’s stupid and vile; I’m afraid because they want to force themsleves on me. I’ve expected since I was a teenager to die in a Christian concentration camp; that’s the way this country is headed.
It improves their behavior ? Given the way they act now, what do you think they would do without religion, run wild in the streets eating people ?
Well, maybe…
The operative word here is “faith.” You’re not working with evidence that can be measured by anyone.
Majority doesn’t rule. Science does. Give me proof that there’s a god and I’ll be the first to say, “Well, look at that!” I still won’t worship, but I’ll acknowledge the existence.
I’m not offended by your faith. I’m offended by many christian’s obsessive need to make christian beliefs part of everyone else’s life in America.
God who?
On the issue of religious belief being “highly destructive” (as opined by Der Trihs) - rather than focusing on the destruction wrought in the name of religion, to which there are always counter-examples, I would like to focus on the damage done to the individual.
In my view, many people use religious belief the same way they, as children, huddled under the blanket when they were scared. The world is a difficult, confusing place? I’ll just wrap my religion around me. I have to face the fact of irrevocable death one day, probably sooner than I would like? If I’m wrapped in religion I can’t see it and so it won’t hurt me. I have emotional problems that could be resolved by the hard work of therapy? I’ll take advice and direction from that voice in my head, which never steers me wrong. I just know it’s true!
What such thinking does is divorce such people from the real world, to a larger or smaller extent, and that keeps them from dealing with the real problems of their life. Or else it condemns them to a life where their religious belief has to be compartmentalized from their everyday life, leading to the feeling that they are hypocrites or worse. Religions thrive on the guilt generated from this conflict.
In my view, that is the greater evil of mystical beliefs of any sort, and that is what is really behind so many of the larger problems in the world.
- If you go around insisting that the government is using mind control rays to ruin your life, you don’t think the majority of people would look at you a little funny? :dubious:
- “Gee, since we can’t a unanimous decision, I’ll just abstain.” I might not like everything about the choices in an election, but I still make a decision and can defend it. I don’t walk away.
- Not all evidence is on your side. The Big Bang is a theory . True, your belief in it is based on scientific data but it has not been conclusively proven. For that matter, neither has the existance of God. Who’s to say that when God said, Let there be light: and there was light , that we aren’t referring to the Big Bang but in a different way?
- Actually, the study says that genes may help determine how religious a person is , not that it is the sole determination on religiousness.
The perversion of religion is what is destructive, not having faith.
Martin Luther King, Jr was a man of faith and a man of the cloth. He preached tolerance for all, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, and he paid for it with his life. His faith in God and man made him a leader and a figure to follow.
Mother Theresa had faith in God and served the forgotten of India. Her commitment to mankind was a testament to her belief in the message of her God.
Mahatma Ghandi was Hindu and inspired by the Bhagavad Gita (along with Tolstoy and Thorough) helped to bring his people to independence from Britain.
The Dalai Lama is a Buddhist and has been striving to end the Chinese occupancy of Tibet. His faith in his cause and drive for peace after 46 years is incredible.
While hate and violence is repeatedly done in the name of religion, love and devotion are more often done in the name of faith and belief.
I’m more offended by the people who assume that because there are a few whack jobs out there preaching hate, that it means the majority believe it. Preach love to others, show compassion, embrace tolerance, believe in the good of human nature. Don’t succumb to the venom of a few twisted individuals. The basis of most major religions is “peace”. Jesus sought to bring peace to all. Islam means peace and Mohammad wrote at length about it. The Torah talks of peace with Yahweh. Buddhism seeks peace with all.
When you look at others, what you see is often filtered by your own beliefs. I believe in the goodness of mankind and hope to see the best in others. If you look at people through eyes of distrust and hate, you will see the same looking back.
Everyone keeps talking about religion in this thread. The qestion is about faith. I can believe in a creator without having to be a member of a religion. I can also be a member of a religion without it being the prominent factor of my existence. When I tell people about myself, I don’t start by saying, “I’m a Roman Catholic who is X years old.” It is a part of me, the same way my age, gender, sexual preference and shoe size are.
Religion does not have to be the be all and end all (or alpha and omega) for a person. You can question a religious teaching or change your religious worship. Faith must come from within.
My faith has been shaken repeatedly. My wife and I have had 3 second-trimester miscarriages (we got to hold only one as he died but buried all three). My wife lost her job as a result of a post operative infection from the last loss and still has an open wound three years later. I watched my aunt and uncle, devout Catholics and the kindest people, die of cancer. My dear uncle who never harmed a soul died of AIDS back in '86 (of course back then it was called AIDS Related Complex and we didn’t talk about the fact that he was gay).
I can question where God is and why these things have happened. I can be angry that so many good people suffer while evil goes on in the world and the wicked are rewarded. Yet for all of the hurt I have felt, for all of the pain and anger I have been dealt, I still believe that there is some form of being out there in the Universe that started this whole ball rolling. Whether he kicked it off and let things coast from there or is actively involved and just incompitent, I don’t purport to know.
My faith in God can be stretched and frayed. I go to the graves of my lost babies and scream out, “Why did you do this to us, God?” But through it all, I still believe. Am I delusional? Maybe. Crazy? Could be. But I believe there is more to this universe and this life than just random interactions of atoms. I believe that things were created just right (if the mass of a proton was just 02% heavier it would be unstable and decay, thus matter would not exist as we know it). I also believe that there has to be more to this life than our short time on this planet and that someday I’ll see my children again.
Faith is not perfect. Faith is not logical. But faith can provide some comfort when you have pain. And faith can while faith does nto provide answers, you can hold onto it until they come.
kelvinator:
You are confusing things, badly.
A true thing is true no matter how many people gainsay it, always. A false thing is false no matter how many people support it, always. You can not give any more evidence for any God, or Gods, than any other. Sure you can argue for it, but there’s no evidence you can use. You can say that your vision of a God is more aesthetic than someone else’s, but there’s no standard of proof.
~grumble grumble~
“Creationists make it sound as though a ‘theory’ is something you
dreamt up after being drunk all night” - Asimov
The Big Bang is falsifiable and based on data. God or Gods or whatever are, by definition, beyond proof, testing, and refutation.
And who’se to say that when the Kabalists speak of Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur they aren’t speaking of the Big Bang, just, erm, in a different way? Something tells me it’s easier to measure microwave radiation and the red shift than the sephirot.
This is the crux of the matter. To try to place faith on the same level as evidence based inquiry does a disservice to both.
Yes it has. The galactic redshift and cosmic microwave background prove conclusively that the universe (spacetime) expanded from a compressed configuration. Einstein’s General Relativity, which describes the “shape” of spacetime, was conclusively proven by observing faraway stars ‘moving’ during a total eclipse.
Then why does the same chapter have the sun being created after grass? God would surely not make such a schoolboy error!