A person can have faith and believe in science. Gregor Mendel brought us the study of genetics. Einstein was Jewish and believed in God. Many scientists ofver the centuries studied science not to disprove the existance of God but to seek to understand how He worked.
Prove to me there was a universe before the Big Bang. Prove to me there is no soul. Explain to me how consciousness comes to exist in a fetus. Explain how the human eye, such a finely specialized apparatus, just randomly created itself. We can create amino acids and proteins in a lab by mixing a bunch of chemicals together, but how did they somehow become alive billions of years ago? I can’t prove God exists. Can you prove he doesn’t?
It is is fundamentalists in any religion, not just Christianity, that make life miserable for the rest of society. Whether it is the gay rights activist, the pro-choice activist, the KKK or the Christian right, extremists are the problem. It is the vocal minority that gets in people’s faces that causes problems. One person doesn’t like it being called a Christmas tree and it becomes a Holiday tree (or else gets completely removed). All it takes is one person to say they don’t like their kid “being forced” to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and millions of people are affected.
You don’t want some group forcing their views on you? What do you call marketing and advertising? What do you call the news media? You are constantly being told what to do and what to believe. “Use this toothpaste and you’ll get laid, " Buy this car and women will jump into your pants.” Laughtracks on sitcoms tell you what to laugh at. Politicians tell you what to believe about crime, welfare, warfare and environmental issues. Public interest groups get in your face about polution, animal rights and speed limits.
Don’t want to get offended by what some group is saying? Think you are being forced into accepting a belief? Guess what. That’s called modern life.
Actually, the universe was opaque right after the Big Bang. (I’d need to look up how long it was before there was light.) So, the Bible is wrong yet again.
Faith is fine, but it should be private. The problem with religion and god belief is the set of people who feel they don’t have to provide evidence for their god thanks to faith, but then turn around and want to outlaw various types of sex, or TV programs, or abortions, because of what their god tells them. People who want to limit my freedom based on what their god says had better give me real solid evidence of his existence, or else shut the hell up. Fair?
If you believe there is a god, you’re not applying scientific knowledge to get to that conclusion. That’s all I’m saying. You may apply science to other areas, but you are choosing to ignore science in matters regarding The Big Question.
I don’t have to prove god doesn’t exist. I have no reason to believe he does exist. Give me a reason to believe, and I’m there, baby.
Actually, it isn’t just the fundamentalists that annoy the majority of non-christian Americans today. It’s the christians who politicize their faith who are pissing me off. Fundamentalists have virtually no affect on my life. They can believe whatever they want. It’s the power-right who are legislating in the name of the baby jesus who are trying (and succeeding) to curtail the rights of American citizens.
While advertising and religion in government cannot be equated in most instances, I frequently find one as amusing as the other.
Yeah, I can see how she was living high on the hog in the slums of India. For 47 years she worked with the poor, lepers, blind and crippled, refusing her Noble Prize money and working to provide aid and comfort for those in need. Was she perfect? No, but who is. The prime critics of her Dr. Aroup Chatterjee and Christopher Hitchens are considered extremely anti-catholic.
Excuse me? The ACLU will not allow legislation in religions name. It will violate church/state separation. The legislation is routinely brought about against a religion, usually Christian based. BTW, Ben Stein had a great commentary on this.
Come on people! Are we all so freakin’ thin skinned that everybody gets offended but what they hear and see? “Oh god, I just saw too men kissing, that should be banned in public!” “I just heard a rap song with swear words. Get that off the air!” “That movie supports right-to-die! Let’s boycott it!”
Give me a break. Diversity is our strength. Show a little backbone and deal with it. I was pissed that Maplethorpe put a crucifix in a jar of urine but that was his right to show. I hate gangsta rap but it is allowed by the Constitution. If someone puts a menorah on the town square, good for them. I’m proud that not everyone is the same. Vive la difference!
Really kelvinator your not helping God or yourself here. The Big Bang is just a theory? your killing me…really. Just stop.
Believing in God is not science, period. And you dont do anybody any good by trying to refute hundreds of years of tested and proved scientific facts, by spouting “just a theory”.
God, as is any faith, is personal. You fell it, or you dont. To me God makes sense. I dont know why. My logical mind rebels sometimes, but I feel Him in my soul; for lack of a better word. You can argue the belief is genetics, or some trained synaptic cluster in my brain. Or just some deep rooted communal feeling that is dominant in most, but receive in others. I dont know.
Maybe, just maybe, it’s the difference between what I do as a private individual (kiss a guy, for example) or as a private company (publish rap music, publish a movie) and what the government does with public property that is paid for by everyone’s taxes (“someone” puts a menorah on the town square).
ACLU does not allow or prevent legislation; they lobby for or against, and they may bring suit against some legislation. They don’t always win, in case you weren’t aware. These actions are not against faith or religion. They are **for ** individuals’ right to choose whether to honor a faith or religion, which I think is the point of one of those pesky first ten amendments. When the government honors a faith or religion, I have no choice because they have my tax dollars.
Of course, the government does a lot of things with my tax dollars that I don’t like, but most of the other ones are not specifically banned by the bill of rights. This has nothing to do with tolerance. You can tolerate what private individuals or companies do. Speaking of tolerance in the face of government mandates to adopt or honor a particular faith or religion makes no sense.
So, to be clear: I honor and uphold every individual’s right to hold whatever views regarding faith and religion that seems best to him or her. But I draw the line (or would like to) when the government tries to tell me that one belief system is better than another, or better than a system based on rational non-faith.
Not that any of this has to do with the OP, but the debate seems to have moved, somehow, into the question of why anyone should object to their government sponsoring religious or “faith-based” activities and beliefs.
Yet if I claim an invisible man in the sky guides me, people think that’s reasonable. Actually, it’s less plausible; at least we know the government exists. Also, if the government were beaming me, it would be true whether or not the public ( or I ) believed it. Like I said, reality is not subject to a vote.
Bad analogy; at least in an election you know the choices exist.
:rolleyes: Not this garbage again. Others here have already debunked it, so I won’t bother.
I suggest you read some history; doing good in the name of religion is the perversion, not doing bad.
Like I said; a perversion. Christianity is a monotheism; you really need to twist it to justify any form of tolerance or mercy.
Don’t you see the contradiction in these two statements ? Forcing your religion on people is not diversity.
Not my job. Logically, something is assumed to not exist unless proved to exist; otherwise, you have to believe in everything, which is literally insane.
Prove it. The few times I’ve seen a study on the subject, it’s said the religious are less compassionate and moral.
Prove it’s just a few; that’s always the excuse, and I don’t buy it.
No you can’t; it’s a religious belief.
So can a variety of drugs, or a lobotomy, or death. That doesn’t make them desirable. As someone once said, happiness is only enough if you’re a cow.
People are good at compartmentalization; if their faith does not contaminate their work, they can still do science. Einstein for example ruined his ability to do science when he developed a religious objection to quantum mechanics; “God does not place dice !”.
I don’t need to; it’s your job to prove it exists - or even possible.
They same way it happens in adults; a process of the brain. We don’t know enough yet to get too detailed.
Evolution. Also, it’s poorly designed; I wouldn’t use it as an arguement for God if I were you.
They kept on mixing, no doubt.
When someone tries to pass laws forcing me or someone else to consume a product, I object and will continue to do so.
Did you read your cite? Stein said nothing about the government. And please, let me know what laws that atheist dominated Congress passed against Christianity. I’m really tired of this “we can’t force people to listen to our prayers, we’re so oppressed” bullshit.
BTW, please let me know about the extremist pro-choicers. Are they the ones sticking guns into people’s ribs and saying “you decide for yourself, like it or not”?
You better watch Stein. He just had a column about how embarissing it is for execs of companies cutting workers salaries voting themselves gigantic bonuses. He might be turning liberal on you.
What leads you to believe that religion itself is bad, and not people distorting it for their own goals? That everything good that has come from a religion is really a perversion of the religion?
The ACLU does not make or permit or disallow legislation. The ACLU’s mission is to protect religious liberties for individual citizen and ti sue for encroachment upon those liberties by the state. That includes opposing attempts by the state to violate the Establisjment clause.
What legislation? name a single piece of legislation which has been brought “against Christianity” in say…the last 50 years.
I agree with all this, but it isn’t atheists who are complaining about things like that.
There is a difference between what private citizens do and what the government does. No one cares or is offended by your own personal religious displays. It’s only an issue if the government does it. Trying to frame the issue as non-Christians simply being “offended” by something they don’t believe in is a dishonest presentation of the facts.
“Piss Christ” wasn’t Mapplethorpe it was Andres Serrano. I actually think it’s avery cool and very misunderstood work of art.
You can use Christianity (or any other religion) to justify pretty much anything you want depending on your interpretation. Why do you say it’s only the people who do good who are “perverting” the religion?
Separation of church and state, dude. Pick up a paper some time. The power right is blurring the line more and more every day. Kansas and Ohio are allowing christian-based creationist ideas to be taught in science classes…on the taxpayer’s dime. They put god on the money, in the pledge, and on the lawn in front of public buildings. It doesn’t represent me and it doesn’t represent other religions. Religion, and christianity in particular, have seeped into the public spaces to the point that people like you actually start believing you have some national obligation to shove it down our throats. Get a clue.
First, a monotheism by definition is claiming that it and it alone is true and all other religions are lies.
Second, my cite is the Bible. It’s full of calls for atrocities. And yes, that includes Jesus; the man who says he comes not with peace but a sword is not pushing tolerance. The Bible is nasty; doing good in the name of a religion based on it does indeed qualify as perverting it.
Theists often say that one reason they believe in a sky-pixie is that the universe is too complicated to have come into existence without being created. Anything that is really complicated must have a creator. Thus, this allows them to theorize that there must be a really really complicated creator who created everything.
And then, I would say, well if there’s a really really complicated creator who created everything and anything which is complicated must have a creator, then who is the creator of the creator?
And then the theists that I encounter tend to say, “Oh, um, no, the creator’s an exception. He doesn’t count. He doesn’t need a creator. Why not? Well, because he’s special. He’s an exception.”
Well, if you can have exceptions to the rule that complicated things need creators, why not say that the universe itself is the exception to the rule that complicated things need creators.
And then the arguments disintegrate into things like “Well that’s not what I believe” or “That’s not what I was taught” or things along those lines.