Why do so many folks hate gays?

Great Debates
121

Phil: Tough question. I’d have to say yes, I do believe the Genesis account. In that passage, it says that “the whole world had one language, and a common speech.” Ok, then they build the tower…God gets mad…He comes down and changes their language…and then “the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth.”

Now, I don’t know what “the whole earth means.” But, if I, or any Christian dismiss the validity of this passage, then I believe it taints God’s Word as a whole. I will not blindly adhere to the Bible, and I’m sure research has been done that could provide evidence to support what’s written in Genesis 11.

122

So, if solid historical, archaeological and linguistic evidence was presented to you in such a fashion as to demonstrate conclusively that, prior to the period described in Genesis 11, there were people living in different parts of the world who had visibly different physiognomies and spoke widely varying languages, all with different derivations, you’d simply say it was all wrong because the Bible says differently?

I would be very careful with your answer here, as there is a terrible potential for embarrassment, and I would rather see you educated than embarrassed.

123

I am so glad you’re not in charge.

So do you “agree” with someone having blue eyes? Do you “approve” of someone being left-handed? As matt so aptly pointed out, you’re disagreeing with rain.

You talk an awful lot about being tolerant, yet you also use words like “disapprove” and “protest” and “condone.”

No one is asking for you to agree with homosexuality, because it is understood that it is not right for you. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I suppose my question is, when you talk about “protesting” homosexuality, what exactly does that mean? Do you preach to gay men and lesbians that they are wrong according to your faith? Do you actively vote against pro-gay legislation? Do you personally discriminate against gay folk? Do you post to internet message boards? Please, let’s hear some specifics.

I do agree with you that I certainly don’t need your “approval” to lead my own life. It just saddens me that you think tolerating me is enough. Personally, I do my best to go a few more steps and actually celebrate the diversity of the world around me, even when it’s not what I would choose myself.

Esprix

Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!

124

Esprix:

Yeah, me too. If it was up to her, my wife and I would be prohibited from having sex, since we’ve always used reliable birth control and I had a vasectomy five years ago.

125

What a thread! I notice that we moved quickly to the religious item.

Some observations:
[list][li]It seems to me that a great number of people cannot conceive of people morally doing things different from them. If you don’t like (football, shopping for new clothes, chess, science fiction) and DO like (celibacy, poetry, protest marches, Chinese food) then there must be something wrong with you. You are condemnable; you are different.[/li][li]As Otto essayed early on in this thread, but didn’t follow up on, God does not condemn “homosexuality.” Homosexuality is an abstract noun. What is condemned in the Bible (according to most readings) are homosexual acts. Bishop John Shelby Spong tells of celibate gays to whom he has ministered, who are (with his approval) comfortable in their sexual orientation but believe in the sinfulness of performing gay acts. It would appear that the typical “Christian” reaction is to condemn the homosexual orientation along with gay activity. By the best evidence available, this is wrong because “being gay” in that sense is not a sin – it is not chosen behavior. Adam, please deal with this question.[/li][li]Whether the origins of homosexual orientation are nature or nurture, genetic or social conditioning, they are not chosen. Virtually every gay telling his/her story has indicated that he or she discovered him/herself to be “different.” Many were horrified at this. And, for the most part, this is unchangeable by human nature. “With God, all things are possible.” Okay, but He doesn’t seem inclined to answer the prayers of gay people who would rather be straight, if anything I’ve read has any bearing on the question. Mel White is a case in point, and lists many others.[/li][li]One final point: Adam is quite right in his assertion of the Christian view of sin. According to all traditional understandings of Christianity, we are all sinners, and it is only God’s grace that saves us from his punishment for that sin. When he alleges that being gay is a sinful behavior that God can save people from, he is making no distinction between that and his own judgmentalism, his propensity for (straight) sexual fantasies, or whatever else may be standing between him and God, in his estimation. Bottom line is that a lot of people see him as being “holier than thou” when his approach is to say, “I’m not OK, you’re not OK, Jesus can do something about it, for all of us.” Feel free to shoot down his misinterpretations of Scripture, but be fair to him in doing it. He is not being sanctimonious but honest in his assertions.[/li][list]

Esprix, thank you for “Carefully Taught.” I’ve always thought that was the perfect song against any form of discrimination, and wondered why it’s never been revived.

“Unnatural?” What is natural? If marriage is only for procreation and child-rearing, then every man whose wife has reached menopause or had a hysterectomy should immediately leave her and marry some young thing that can give him as many children as possible. Sex is appropriate in marriage for two reasons, one of them being procreation, the other because it is the outward and visible sign of the couple’s deep love for each other.

That brings us to gay marriage. Notice that all the people who are claiming that any premarital sex is sinful are also the ones protesting against gay marriage as a “debasement of the sanctity of marriage.” (I note that Pepperlandgirl does not feel this way, and congratulate her for her willingness to think things through.)

My final point is that Christians should be the last people to condemn gays, not, as at present, the first. As noted, many (most?) people hate and fear what is not “normal” for them. Christians are called not to judge but to love. IMHO, they’ve been doing a remarkably lousy job of it.

126

No, I don’t actively vote against Gays, I don’t preach to gays and lesbians, and the only message board I post on is this one, so you all know what I’m saying. I don’t actively protest in any way really. If I found a way to do so effectively, I probably would. But I don’t think one exists, so I don’t waste my time.
I do feel I’m tolerant of homosexuals. I’m a hell of a lot more tolerant then about 99% of people I know in school, and my family. I have a very open mind…
You know what? It’s been so long since I’ve posted here that I can’t remember what I originally was arguing. A lot of things have happened since then…
It all narrows down to this, Just because you are gay and people I know are gay doesn’t mean I have to say being gay is a natural thing. Maybe I am just being illogical and small minded, and I’m sure there are vultures waiting to pounce on that and call me all kinds of names and compare me to the Nazis. Fine whatever, I don’t care.

Oh and I’m sorry for post 4 messages that say the same thing. I REALLY didn’t mean to do that, I’m not sure what happened. My computer was acting up. My bad. Sorry again for wasting the room, time, etc.

127

[QUOTE]
**
It all narrows down to this, Just because you are gay and people I know are gay doesn’t mean I have to say being gay is a natural thing. Maybe I am just being illogical and small minded…

P-girl - let me see if I am understanding you.
You think being gay is not natural. You do not agree with it because it does not result in procreation. Right? Does this mean that you think it is immoral, or just unnatural? What I understand your argument to be could be summarized like this - X is not natural because it does not lead to Y. I would not X but I will take no action against those who do. Have I got it so far?

This is just a question, now :slight_smile: - if monkeys participate in acts we would agree are “homosexual”, and monkeys are natural animals, how do you figure it’s “unnatural”? Do you mean in in the sense of “not for the usual purpose” rather than “outside the realm of the natural”? I just want to understand what you’re saying, because I think that’s been part of the problem here.

128

I could say it’s immoral, but right now I can’t back that up, except my Church says so. Obviously that’s not an acceptable arguement in this debate, so I’m sticking with unnatural.
I may have been raised differently then everybody else, but I believe in the traditional, nuclear family. I believe that is the natural course for Human Beings to take. Call me old fashioned but I like the idea of Mother, Father, Sibling(s).
I think it’s important for children to be raised by both parents, and I think it’s important for men and women to get married, have sex (AFTER MARRIAGE ONLY), and have children. That’s the natural course of action, or at least that’s the course of action society has historically taken. (Except of course for The Ancient Greeks. Why doesn’t someone bring that up again?)
So unnatural does not equal immoral right now. I don’t care how many monkies or apes act homosexually. I’m not a monkey, dog, bird, fish, or whatever animal shows tendencies.
So, go live homosexual lives, fine great. Please, I beg of you, be happy. Don’t do anything that makes you depressed or sad. (I know, you are all waiting for my approval =P) But I don’t have to agree that it’s natural or good. Besides, just because people SAY it’s right, doesn’t MAKE it right. And just because people SAY it’s wrong, doesn’t MAKES it wrong, so basically this debate will always be at a stalemate.

129

“Unnatural” doesn’t cut it in this debate, either, but you’re free to think what you wish.

I believe in family, too, but I also believe there’s room for a lot of different types of families. Do you oppose children being placed in foster homes with one or two gay parnets? How about adoption?

The “natural course of action,” in reference to procreation, is actually for a man to reproduce as often as possible with as many women as possible.

Then find a word other than “natural,” because from a purely scientific, anthropological and sociological point of view, homosexuality is natural.

Absolutely right - we don’t have to agree. But I find your “tolerance” suspect. “Oh, I think you’re unnatural, but I’m so happy you’re my friend!” :rolleyes:

Again, it still sounds like you’re disagreeing with rain.

Esprix

130

Esprix, what would you have me do? Change everything I’ve ever felt, thought, said, or done just so I agree with you? Do you want me to compromise my personal belief system so I can condone homosexuality? I’ve tried very hard to not to bring any religious beliefs into this, and that’s really the root of all my thoughts.
I’m becoming very…I don’t know what the word is…it’s not frustrated. MIght as well be though.
Why can’t you just accept that I believe homosexual people are great, homosexual acts are not.
There are always going to be exceptions to everything. Just because I said that I would like to see all people raised in the traditional nuclear family doesn’t mean it’s plausible, even possible, or the best solution. THat would just be my ideal. I realize that people are stupid, selfish creatures and many parents are not ready to be parents but they have children anyway. And many people would LOVE to have children, are ready for children, and can care for children, who can’t have their own, so they have to adopt.
[sarcasm] Plese excuse me for having thoughts, feelings, and ideas that are different from yours. [/sarcams]
I’m not responding to this thread anymore, it’s very time consuming and downright stupid. I’m suspect as being intolerant because I have different opinons.
Have I once stated that homosexuals are stupid/wrong/ or going to burn in hell? Have I once tried to convert anybody to be ‘saved’. Have I used any derogatory names? Have I insulted somebody purposely? THe answer to all those is “no”
Have I dared to put forth the idea that maybe, just maybe, somebody could have differing views from somebody else without being full of hate? Yes, obviously that’s something that doesn’t go over well here. Why? Because it’s never been seen before in GD?
You suspect my tolerance suspect Esprix? Well fuck you. I haven’t done anything but TRY to be as tolerant and open minded as possible.
I don’t want to start a fight or anything, I really enjoy your posts most the time Esprix.

131

I know you said you weren’t going to post anymore, but hopefully you’ll read at least this post.

Ok, throughout this thread you have taken much of what has been said as personal attacks, including a couple of my posts. Now, I can’t speak for the others, but I did not mean my writings as attacks of any kind.

Please, don’t see this as a personal attack. Just give me a moment here.

When you post, you come across as unsure and it’s also apparent that you haven’t dwelled too long on this particular subject. So when I posted questions that challenged your posts, I was not attacking you. I was asking you to look at your statements from another point view. Hoping that you would consider all the possible angles and really examine the mechanics of your thoughts and beliefs.

Maybe I’m being overly empathetic here, but I see a lot of myself a few years ago in you. I’m also from a LDS background and was inactive. I typically was unsure as to what to think, so would say “my church believes this, so by extension, I believe it also”. Personally, I found that type of thinking to suck. I’d constantly would find myself overwhelmed by those who had more experience and facts readily at hand. I’d feel like I was getting swarmed in every debate and had no means to save myself except by getting defensive.

Since then, I have picked up a few critical thinking skills and have started to seek out knowledge that challenges what I believe. My mind has been changed several times as a result of lurking on various threads here dealing with topics I had only a cursory knowledge about.

So I’m asking you to really think these topics through. Not just homosexuality, but all of them, especially the LDS religion. Examine these things from all sides. Really ponder the why’s of your beliefs. Don’t just stick to those areas that are friendly to your point of view, but those that challenge it as well. It can be hard at times, but from experience, I can tell you that you’ll only gain confidence from it. It’s nice to be able to defend those beliefs that have been fortified.

Now, on to why I should care? Well, I do want to see you learn as much as you can from life, but my intentions are selfish as well. It’d be nice to just say that what we believe has no effect on others, but we are living in an interwoven society. What we believe does have an effect on another at some point. Most noticeably, we take these beliefs into the voting booth. Being tolerated as a lesbian is nice, but how you vote can have a longer lasting and more profound effect on my life than how politely you treat me and a girlfriend in a grocery store.

Personally, while it’d be ideal for you to vote pro on gay-unions, etc I realize that it probably won’t happen. Still, I’d rather have you vote against my family rights because you believe A, B, and C than for you to think, “well my gut instinct says I should vote this way” or “I’m not sure why I believe what I believe, but here’s my vote”.

Ok, I hope that came across as intended; as a friendly chat, and not a personal attack.

Peace.

132

[Moderator Hat ON]

Pepperlandgirl, please keep insults like “well fuck you” in the BBQ Pit. Thanks.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

133

Hi…I said something I didn’t mean today to Esprix, and I’m sorry. I know better then to respond to posts, especially in GD, when I am upset about something. And I was earlier today, and I let my anger manifest itself in a place where it didn’t belong. I was not even upset at this board, it just something that sort of happened. It was a slip, and I’m sorry. When I had time to cool down, I realized that I wanted to make an apology, so here I am…
Gaudere, sorry for using profanity, especially since it was directed towards somebody in anger…I realize this was not the appropriate time or space…
Esprix, sorry sorry. Sorry. I like you, and I like your posts, and I’m sorry…
I hope that nobody took anything personal in my last post…I’m sorry for acting so childish. I really really really am, and I promise that in the future I will not respond to this board unless I am thinking rationally and my emotions regarding the world around me is firmly in check.
Again, I’m sorry.

134

pepperlandgirl, apology accepted.

Obviously, as beaker pointed out, you’re taking this discussion personally. I understand how easy it is to do that, but rest assured I’m only debating your statements (or, more specifically, why you believe what you believe), not you personally.

I understand you think homosexuality is immoral and unnatural, but, first, it’s been pointed out that it is natural from a “nature” point of view; and second, when you yourself say your beliefs are based in your religion, and at the same time you say you don’t know very much about your religion, then it’s only natural for me to ask you how exactly you came to believe that homosexuality is immoral. Do you understand that contradiction?

Because that very statement shows how much you don’t understand about human sexuality, and homosexuality in specific.

This statement is, IMHO, a slap in the face to every non-traditional family out there. How can I not take that kind of a statement personally?

As I said before, I’m well aware that we disagree, but in this forum, it is de rigeur that if you’re going to state your opinion, it is advisable that you have some kind of solid reasoning for it - “It’s just what I believe” doesn’t really cut it.

I do hope you continue to post, understanding we’re trying to keep to debating an issue, not each other.

Esprix

135

I think along this whole thread, people forgot to ask God
what was up. I asked God, just now, if I’m ok and
God said “Yep, hon.” Having walked both sides of
the street I think I have a much better view. Love
that God o’mine, but these holier-than-thou’s are
really starting to bug me.

Everyone, live a good life, the best you can. Make
the people you love happy and try not to bug the rest
too much. Don’t try to peg people into catagories just
so you don’t have to think so hard (tsk tsk lazy).
What you would say to me: successful, happy woman, now
committed to a man, after coming out to my family years
ago in highschool. Is my man going to hell because he
sleeps with a homosexual every night? I knew what was
going on with me at 16, I still know now. I’m gay, my
lover loves it. He’s straight and I don’t hold it against him.
Love so rocks! Asked if I’m straight (def not–
way too curvey), religious (Oh yes! Thanking God
everyday for making life interesting), if I care what
you think (not really).

I responded to this thread a long time ago and was happy
to find it in GD where it belongs. Just thought you
might have fun putting me in your dern boxes.

If you’re not enjoying my life, hey, you don’t have to—
ENJOY YOUR OWN–get one if needed.

See yous.

The always friendly,

136

I’ve read through the posts on either side of this debate and would like to add a few things:

Regarding the argument:

Argument A. “God made me with a sexual orientation towards other people of the same gender, so it must be ok to have same gender sex.”

There are some obvious flaws with this line of reasoning. To use the above argument one must also agree with the Arguments B and C.

Argument B. “God made me with a chemical imbalance which makes me a homicidal killer, so it must be ok when I kill.”

Argument C. “God made me with a genetic disposition to be an alcoholic, therefore it’s ok to be an alcoholic.”

The essence of Argument A is that since you were made a particular way by God (assuming you believe in God) then that must be ok. This position is consistent as long as you accept someone making the statement that any genetic disposition to act a certain way is “ok with God”.

Regarding the natural/unnaturalness of homosexuality:

Whether or not something is natural or unnatural is irrelevant to whether or not it is right or wrong. Technically anything occuring in nature is natural. When determining what is right or wrong I think the first choice made must be between these 2 options.

  1. Deity exists.

  2. Deity does not exist.

In case 1 whatever the deity says is wrong, is wrong, period (Of course there are people, such as Christians from different religions, who agree the same deity exists and yet often disagree about the nature of what has been communicated from said deity… but thats another issue).

In case 2 right and wrong is always subjective and based generally on cultural norms of right and wrong (this of course also varies on an individual basis). In other words, things are only labeled as wrong when people think they are. People thinking something is wrong doesn’t make it so. Theoretically a culture could determine that murder was ok and to them it would be.

Applying the above to homosexuality:

It is irrelevant what science indicates about genetic tendencies or what psychology and sociology says about homosexuality in modern culture in regards to the “rightness” or “wrongness” of homosexuality. In case 1 if deity dictates something is wrong then it is. In case 2 nothing is wrong. In case 2 the only things perceived to be wrong are those which our specific culture considers so.

Grim Beaker

137

I think that women who are infertile, women who have had to have hysterectomies, women who have gone through menopause, men who are infertile and men who have had vasectomies should not be allowed to have sex.

They shouldn’t even be allowed to hug or kiss one another, because that could lead to sex, and none of these people have the ability to produce a child.

And they’d especially better not hug or kiss each other (which they shouldn’t be doing in the first place) in public, because I don’t want my children subjected to the hideous spectacle of two people who have no possibility of producing children together showing physical love to one another. Physical love between people who have no ability to produce a child is sick and unnatural.

[/sarsacm]

I think I’ve made my point.

Re: the actual TOPIC…I think people hate gayfolk because they have been woefully misguided into believing that anything that two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not physically damage the person or property of another, is somehow their business and effects them in some way.

“But if gay men kiss each other in public that offends me!”

You know what? Neon pink Spandex pants offend the crap out of me. I’m not going to put law on the books denying the right of neon pink Spandex wearing people to marry.

138

The problems with arguments B and C are the questions of harm. Argument B harms another and Argument C harms self. So to defend against homosexuality you must factual demonstrate that it has a greater harm than heterosexuality.
Note: I’ve see efforts to do this many times, and oddly enough, lesbianism comes across of the least harmful of all sexual activities. :smiley:

I agree with you. Just because something is or is not genetic does not mean that it is moral/immoral. I am not genetically predisposed to speak English, yet I do. No one questions the morality of my morality.

So maybe homosexuality is genetic, maybe it’s biological, maybe it’s nuture, or maybe I made some arbitrary choice when I was eight that set me on a path that contributed to my first crush on Nikki in fifth grade.

Ok, so I’m gay. Now discuss the morality of that on it’s own merits. Who will I harm? What will harm me? What good will come of it? What bad will come of it? Will society be helped or hindered? Or will it remain as it is now?

**

  1. Deity exists.

  2. Deity does not exist.

In case 1 whatever the deity says is wrong, is wrong, period (Of course there are people, such as Christians from different religions, who agree the same deity exists and yet often disagree about the nature of what has been communicated from said deity… but thats another issue).
**

As you point out, right and wrong is subjective whether there is a deity or not. He/they is not an active participate in mankind. He/they does not send us frequent memos and don’t regularly step in and correct us. Some believe that he/they left plenty of instruction manuals and the like, but interpretation of those rules are entirely up to the reader. (eg. Sodom - was it rape, homosexuality, or inhospitality that doomed the town?)

139

Oh, I just had to join in with this thread.

Speaking personally, I am 19 and have had two serious, long-term relationships with men. I have also been attracting to women. Not something I am planning on following up right now, but I wouldn’t rule anything out. Also, I should mention that my best friend since I was 11 is gay, and always had been. He knew at age 10, before I knew what gay meant - he had to tell me. He was raised in a strict Irish-Catholic home and his parents have recently found out about his homosexuality. To all of their surprise, they love each other anyway. Go figure.

I also want to say that I gave up religion a while ago. When I was 9, in Sunday School, my teacher said that all Africans would go to hell because they weren’t in God’s glory, AKA Christianity. Because I lived in an inner-city neighborhood, I thought, well, all my friends are black. Some of the best people I know are black. So if they had been born in Africa, and their relatives that were, will burn in hell? God discriminates based on area?

Yet, teach said, it was up to ME to save them. Well fly me to Africa today, I thought, so I can ruin millions of Africans’ perfectly decent mindsets by preaching this idiotic, sycophantic rhetoric at them.

I don’t care for anyone attacking that logic, because I was 9 and I see the flaws. Just saying is all. Since then, I have not followed any relgion seriously. I have flirted with atheism, but I am more agnostic than anything.

NOW, pertaining to the thread:

"We, as humans, can not change our mindset. A very angry man could not attain peace is his life without God. A depressed person would not know true joy without God, no matter what drugs he was on. In the same way, a gay person can only change, through the power of God. " ~ Zion

If you say so. Me, I think I can do whatever the heck I want. Feeling excellent about the premarital sex, the widesprwad use of “fuck”, the occasional pot use, even the time I broke my roommate’s CD player so she would stop playing gospel music and sermon tapes while I was trying to sleep (ironic, huh?) I believe there is a section of the Bible (not able to quote directly, but it IS there) that states God rewards us for our good acts and our attempts to live morally and decently. I may have done the stuff I mentioned above, but I also volunteer three times a week with abused children. Instead of a job in high school, I worked for free at a clinic in the projects-neighborhood I had once left behind. I donate 2% of my income (which isn’t a lot, but I only make minimum wage) to charity. I think I am decent. If God doesn’t, maybe I shouldn’t believe in him. Maybe I don’t. I don’t think if that God really cares if you go to church, as long as you live fairly. IMHO. Also, minus the help of God, I was able to find peace with myself, with my alcoholic, abusive father, with my drug-abusing brother, and with my transition from inner-city Baltimore poverty to relatice suburban wealth via my stepdad.

Back to gays: they have every right to do what they want. People use religion and hatred as an excuse to hate what is different. Always have, always will.

As for the Bible, recently I attended a speech by Floyd Cochran, a former Aryan-Nation youth recruiter. He now works hoping to stop the spread of hate crimes. I asked how the Bible was twisted to make hatred of all people who are different acceptable, and he was able to list 10 psalms off the top of his head. He read then, showed how he would once twist them to support his beliefs, and then quoted other psalms in direct opposition, mainly that little-mentioned one about God loving everyone, gentile or gew, slave or free. I’m sure you know the one.

I encourage everyone to live their lives in a manner that makes them happy and forget the bs and religions grandstanding tossed around thoughtlessly. In the long run, your own happiness and peace of mind, which I was able to find quite easily WITHOUT God, and you will be alright.

As for Heaven, I masturbate once a week, so I won’t see you guys there :slight_smile:

140

**
As for Heaven, I masturbate once a week, so I won’t see you guys there :slight_smile:
**

Once a week? That’s a mere 52 times a year. Honey, if you’re going to risk Hell’s fires and pass up the chance to spend eternity with Pat Robertson, you need to get as much enjoyment out of life as possible.

That might help push your average up.
[and no, I have no way to tie this post into the OP. So sue me.]