ZION: my Scriptural knowlege is twisted? I am just quoting them, and pointing out the inconsistancies. I guess you mean the King James Version is “twisted”? Hey, you folks (and I mean you too, PEPPER) are the ones who said “the Bible says Gays are bad”. Now I am showing that either the Bible says no such thing, OR it says it in an obsolete section, OR it includes it in a list of things so many people do, that if we ALL went to Hell, Heaven would be a very lonely place.
Oh, and you continue to “debate”, Zion & Pepper, so you continue to sin (Rom.1:29). Don’t like your own works being turned on you, do you?
I don’t understand why you keep attacking me Daniel. I never said what I stated was my personal beliefs, I was stating what other people thought. Remember the OP? Why do people hate gays? cuz the Bible says it’s bad, and because it’s outside of marriage. I don’t buy into either one of those points because I will repeat AGAIN: I HAVE NOT READ THE BIBLE AND WHAT KNOWLEDGE I HAVE IS GENERAL. THEREFORE I AM NOT GOING TO ARGUE BIBLICAL REFERENCES!
Do I need to make it more clear then that?
I DO Stand by my unnatural reference, that’s my personal belief. It has nothing to do with God or the lack thereof. It has nothing to do with people or their choices blah blah blah. I think it’s unnatural. Period. I have stated why. You want to attack what I have said, attack it on that point. DO NOT BRING UP THE BIBLE!!! I"M NOT A BIBLICAL SCHOLAR, I’M NOT ACTIVE IN CHURCH (OR AS ACTIVE AS I SHOULD BE) AND HALF THE PEOPLE HERE DON’T LISTEN TO ME ANYWAY BECAUSE TO THEM I AM NOT “CHRISTIAN”. If you want to argue about the Bible I’m sure Zion will be more then willing to accomodate.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
Could it be possible, that you feel that homosexual sex is unnatural for you? This would be much less inflamitory a statment. It is very natural for me to be in a relationship with a person I am attracted to, and am capable of loving fully. For me the thought of being (or trying to be) in a relationship with a woman is unnatural. That’s my perspective of what is natural for me. But if I were to say I believe hetrosexuals (or heterosexuality) are(is) unnatural, sends a completely different message.
Bear, I can live with that analogy. I realize it’s unnatural for me while it’s the most natural thing in the world to some people. Fine, great. But that’s not gonna change my position. Just becuse it’s natural or right for some people doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.
At least you aren’t quoting the Bible at me.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
PEPPER: I have no problem with your personal opinions, you have every right to them. And I was not attacking you so much as your statement “the Bible sez it’s bad”. I have tried to change your mind on THAT. I am sorry if it appeared as a personal attack, or an attack on your personal beliefs, I try not to do either. But, I hope, that next time someone asks you why you feel uncomfortable w/ homosexuality, you answer “it’s a personal choice”- instead of “it’s in the Bible”.
pepperlandgirl, I apologize if I have twisted your words. It was not my intent. I must be misunderstanding your point.
You said that you believe homosexuality is unnatural because it doesn’t help propagate the species. I’m saying that that is true of many things, including prayer. Is prayer unnatural? (I admit my argument was unclear. Sorry.)
Your argument is that the purpose of sexual activity is procreation. But most sex between heterosexuals does not result in pregnancy. Its purpose is pair bonding, so say the ethologists. By your reasoning, masturbation—the most common sexual activity of humankind (so I’ve heard :))—is unnatural.
Suppose I told you this: the natural function of the mouth is eating; therefore, talking is an unnatural act. You would rightly tell me that the mouth can be used for several purposes, all of them natural. This is my argument about sex. It has more than one natural purpose.
Because people seem to need a group to demonize and vilify, and Gays are one of the few groups it is still OK to do this to.
Some men fear that they may be homosexual themselves, and project their fear onto gays. “If I bash gays, then I can’t be one right?” (Note, this does not mean such men actually ARE gay, it just means they THINK they MIGHT be.)
Being an emotionally repressed heterosexual male is such hard work, (As one myself I can testify to this), you’ve gotta envy people not burdened with this.
As Esprix said, they are taught to hate. Religion does this as some posts here make depressingly clear, but so does the culture in general.
OK, now for Pepperland girl and others, imagine the following post in the Nazi Germany straight dope message board, circa 1933:
“I don’t hate Jews, I’ve known a few myself. I just think they are unnatural, and they refuse to accept Christ. Also Our Furher has conclusivly shown that they are not true Germans, and cannot contribute to the German state.” Sound familiar?
Sorry, I’ve got to disagree. My point with the Nazi analogy is that ANY prejudice, even mild prejudice, is ultimately hateful and destructive. Pepperlandgirl may think she isn’t harming anyone with her beliefs but she is. She is part of society and in a small way contributes to the notion that Gay’s are wrong and evil.
Simply replace the word gay in any of her posts with some other group, change the “logic” to fit said group, and see how it sounds.
“I have nothing against the Irish personaly, but I wish they wouldn’t all be stupid drunks.”
“People wouldn’t hate blacks so much if they kept to their place.”
" I just think the values of Asians will make it impossible for any of them to be true Americans"
I agree Pepperlandgirl isn’t the worst, but that’s why I’m trying for shock. I don’t have any hope of convincing Zion, or any truly committed bigot.
To fly! The dream of man and flightless bird alike! -Some general on the Simpsons
You’re right. The most frustrating thing about the Bible-thumping intolerant people, is that they refuse to accept any authority but the Bible. Well, hey, I can quote scripture better than most of them, so I’ll fight that battle. But when you show they are wrong with direct scriptural quotes, they just shut up and run away, whining. I mean, either the Bible is a source or it ain’t…
QUOTE FROM ZION
A Girl: I’m not sure if your post was a troll or not, but I’ll address it anyway. The Bible very clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. It also states that it is unnatural.
Adam
I hear this argument all the time. But how can something that exists in nature be unnatural? Am I missing the definition of natural?
I would like to know why it’s okay for the bible thumpers to consider the bible as the only correct source of information, and disregard anyone else’s research, personal preference or experience, other beliefs, etc., as untrue, unnatural, or “a sin.” Zion said a long time ago in this thread, I think about how the world was created, “don’t believe everything you read.” But basically that’s what ZION’S doing, reading the bible and believing it all, disregarding everything else.
pepperlandgirl, would arguments proving homosexuality occurs naturally, regardless of procreative tendencies, change your mind?
And if you concede that the Bible may have been flawed by the taint of man, is it possible that its stance on homosexuality might also have been so tainted?
matt_mcl, as usual, you’re right on the money. Thanks for the quotes.
A Girl : Yes, it’s bad that Zion, et al, will only accept the Bible as a source, but it’s worse: when you prove them wrong, USING THE BIBLE, they still won’t give up.
I realize people have sex for pleasure, to bond, to show love, and on and on. I also realize all sex does not result in pregnancy (Though when you are in high school it’s all you here) ANd yes, as far as I know, as far as I’ve been told, the LDS Church asks us to refrain from personal gratification, and masterbation. I’m not saying you all should, please don’t start a debate arguing all the merits of masterbating. I also realize that being intolerant of anybody who is different to any degree is going to harm society more then it helps it.
And yes, I know that some animals have homosexual tendencies in nature. There are some primates I saw on the Discovery Channel once that apparently had no inhibitions with who they uh…to put it not so delicatley, humped.
I don’t hate homosexuals. I don’t judge them as something less then human. The argument has been brought up, just because it’s unnatural for me, doesn’t mean it’s unnatural for other people. That works both ways. And while I say to each his own, different courses for different horse etc…that doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.
For Example: (And I realize it’s not on the same level, but it’s a small example) I could have a friend who honestly believes that it’s right to drink 12-pack of beer a day. I can be friends with that person, hang out with them, talk to them. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with what they do, or like what they do…or in anyway condone it.
So if it’s right for you, fine. But it’s not right for me, and I reserve the right to protest it in a civilized way (Read, no insults etc), and to state my personal views.
Ox, Daniel, you didn’t offend me. I just didn’t understand your logic. Like I said before, I don’t believe the Bible says it’s bad, I haven’t actually found the proof with my own two eyes. I was just responding that some people say that, which is answering the OP.
Oh, and Daniel thank you for defending me (Kind of) with the “naive and misled” thing. At least you recgonize that I’m not a rabid, raging bigot.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
I understand that any amount of intolerance at any level by anybody is ultimately more destructive them helpful. That’s why I’m not intolerant. People have the right to make their own personal choices and decisions. And people have the right to either respect, protest, or ignore those choices to a certain degree. Just because it’s natural and wonderful for some people to be homosexual does not mean I have to agree with it in anyway or condone it.
I try to be a very broad and tolerant thinker. I figure, to each his/her own. Whatever it takes to make you who you are. However, I don’t always agree with what makes you you. Does this make me intolerant or a bigot? No. Does it mean you are wrong? No. It means we have differing views, and we should each respect and understand those views.
I still stand by the fact that one should have sex to make babies. My favorite form of birth control is my mom’s advice, “you don’t want babies, you don’t have sex.” That’s what sex is for.
I realize that some animals in the do exhibit homosexual characteristics. I saw some primates on the Discovery Channel once that just went at it with any ol body, regardless of gender. And I’ve also been taught to refrain from self-gratification…by my religion. Please, I’m not trying to start a debate on masterbation and the merits or lack thereof.
Well, thank you Daniel(I think it was you) for defending me by calling me naive and misled. I think that’s a compliment this particular area, so I’m going to take it as such.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
A girl: The Bible is the cornerstone of Christianity. Without it, we have no way of knowing what is truth, what is sin, who Jesus, or God is, or what life is. God says that “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word will endure forever.” The writers of the New Testament knew how important God’s Word was, as they continuously went back to it, and quoted from the Old Testament, time and time again.
I know non-Christians probably get sick of hearing Christians say, “But, the Bible says…whatever.” It is our greatest guide, or lifeline, it is the divine Word of our Lord. So yes, we’re going to believe everything it says.
Actually, if it’s right for him but not for you, the only right you reserve to “protest” it is to not do it. You have no right to object to him doing it, provided it doesn’t harm others. (No matter what “it” is.)
Adam:
Do you believe that in the time period described in Genesis 11, prior to the Babel incident, everyone spoke the same language, and that all human languages originate from that area of the world?
