pepperlandgirl said
So, is prayer unnatural?
And Zion
No, he was celibate. (Which is unnatural, according to pepperlandgirl.) So if I want to be a Christian, I have to be like Jesus, so I have to be celibate. And Jewish.
Is this accurate?
ZION: I am afraid you are rather wrong about the Bible & Homosexuality. Let us start w/ Lev 18:22. Well, that is prteey clear, that Homosexual SEX(not homosexuality) is an abomination. So you follow Levitcus do you? I really think not. Lev 19:17 & 18 “thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: THOU SHALT NOT IN ANY WAY REBUKE THINE BROTHER…, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people”. Previous verses make it clear that “brother” is not meant here in a biological term, but in the sense of brotherhood of man. And what are YOU doing here, over & over–REBUKING THINE BROTHER, not to mention hating, and bearing a grudge. Beside, Leviticus is just chock FULL of various LAWS that I KNOW you don’t follow (got a beard?- ever cut it? Eat any non kosher food? Keep Saturday or Sunday as the sabbath? ever ate dinner with gentiles? ever have sex w/ a woman during “that time”? So you take offerings to the Temple to be burned?) OOPS, I guess you DON"T follow Leviticus. That’s Ok, as JC offer us a “new covenant” w/ him, right? Right, then why bring up Lev as proof that Homosexuality is a sin? So is eating pork, then!
But, we have Paul, right? And you quote 1 Cor. 6:9. Lets see what it says:“Know ye not that the unrighteoys shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not decieved: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abuserss of themself with mankind…” (Have ANY sex life at all, outside of marriage? Ever “abused” yourself? OOPS! then you’re going to hell with the “effeminate” (but don’t worry, you’ll have LOTS o’ company, ie just about everyone who has ever lived, including me). And the “effeminate”-- it does not really seem to mean Gay men, but instead gay “fem” prostitutes.) “…nor thieves, nor covetetous(OOOPS), nor drunkards(OOPS), nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God”.
But, heck you LIKE & admire Paul, yes? Ever had sex at all, even with your wife? Paul does not approve of anyone haveing any sex at all for any reason (Cor.7 :). So the whole human race crashes to an end in AD 170, or so. Thanks, Paul. Paul is perhaps the greatest pitchman who ever lived, who took a small Jewish Messianic cult, and turned it into the greatest religion the world has ever seen. But, Paul was a sexist prude. According to him, those nasty women are 2nd class (at best) citizens. AND, no sex.
Oh, ever eat any blood (sausage, and any non-kosher meat), or any animal “strangled”, OOPS, you’re in w/ those NASTY “effeminates” (Acts 15:20).
Well, at least I can say one thing about Paul’s version of Hell, I’ll be in good company. 
OOPs, maybe not, ther will be a lot of hypocrites like ZION there also.
Dumb Ox: (Why would you pick a handle that sounds so insulting…I feel like I have to apologize now) You knew what I meant about being like Jesus. and in case you really didn’t know…I meant that we should “be holy, for He is holy.” He’s our example.
Zion:
Oh, but that’s not even close to what you said. You said we should be “not gay” because Jesus was “not gay”. Dumb Ox knew what you meant, and so did I. Just because he called you on it doesn’t give you a dispensation to revise what you’ve already written.
I agree that being like Jesus is an admirable goal. I find the Jesus I know to be mellow, inclusive, insightful, and kind. The people I surround myself with tend to share those characterstics, be they AC or DC. These are the traits of Jesus that I choose to emulate.
With regards to the OP, there is a trait that I’ve noticed among vocal homophobes I’ve had the pleasure of interacting with. Almost all preferred to have a simple, well-defined view of the world. They wanted simple, immutable rules. They wanted the familiarity and comfort that derives from that construct. Everything outside their coccoon of familiarity causes them to question their well-defined worldview and is therefore threatening.
I believe that homophobia, sexism, racism, xenophobia, and any other perceived intolerance is merely a symptom of a crippling case of closed mind.
stoli
“There’s always a little dirt, or infinity, or something.” -Feynman
Zion, you’re saying that Jesus being heterosexual made him holy, but his being Jewish did not. How do you know this?
My complaint is that many fundamentalists seem to pick and choose which parts of their Bible they will follow based on personal preference.
“Let’s see… The Bible says that having homosexual sex is a sin. I’ve always been personally disgusted by homosexuality, so that must be God’s inspired Word.”
“Hmm… It also says that it is a sin to touch the flesh of a dead pig. But I really like football, so that must just be one of those local customs that Jesus gets us out of.”
By the way, my screen name is borrowed from Thomas Aquinas, probably the greatest theologian who ever lived (I’m surprised you didn’t know that. ;)) When he was in seminary, his classmates used to call him “the dumb ox,” because he was ugly and overweight and walked slow. One of their professors found out about this nickname and told them, “Someday this ox will roar like a lion.” And he was right.
I just really like that story.
Ye gods! How did the Gay Guy miss this one?
The OP: Why do people hate gay people? For all the reasons listed, and then some. I’ll also add one - people are taught who to hate. Anybody hearing the song “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught” from “South Pacific” in your head right about now?
The religious brouhaha: BTDT (Zion and I have sparred before, and Otto is, as usual, fighting the good fight for the rest of us). I thoroughly understand the Christian point of view on the topic of homosexuality, and I thoroughly disagree with it, as they with mine. I am also not going to argue whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is a sin - I can accept that it does, and, of course, disagree with it. The Christians maintain their moral superiority, I maintain mine. I’ll leave them to their little lives, I’ll go ahead and lead mine, and the most logical place where we clash - in general society - I will continue to fight my side of the coin and they will fight theirs, at the polls, in the schools, what have you.
Jesus did not have a sex ethic - he had a love ethic. I’ll stick with that.
Couple points, tho:
[llist][li]I am more apt to take the word of many professional psychological organizations (even over and above my own life’s lessons) than take the word of a few Bible-thumping Christians; I was wired this way from birth, and no god I would worship would tell me to lie to myself and be something I was never meant to be. IMO.[/li]
[li]If being gay is icky for you, fine - please stop telling me I’m wrong for it not being icky for me (and frankly, sex with girls is icky for me, but you don’t see me telling you to change your wicked ways).[/li]
[li]As a citizen of the United States, there are certain inequities in the application of laws I’d like to see changed, and religious fervor doesn’t apply one way or t’other.[/li]
[li]pepperlandgirl, since there is at most 10% of the population lesbian or gay, procreation is, and never will be, a problem. You just keep schtuppin’ like bunnies, and we’ll be fine. And any unwanted kids, well, I’ll just adopt 'em - that way everyone’s happy. And to your point of pre-marital sex - since we’re not allowed to get married, it’s all “pre-marital.” Kind of hypocritical of you to deny us the right, then blame us for not having it - how “noble” is that? (And I’m not even going to get into your stilted views of what a marriage should be based on - I am so glad I completely disagree with you there.) Besides, as mentioned, there are thousands upon thousands of committed, mongamous, lifelong partnered gay and lesbian couples out there who are doing their best to get by on their own. Some of them have even had their unions blessed by {gasp} their own places of religion! :eek:[/li]
[li]Bad-Mojo, read the psych research - there’s been some interesting studies done on twins, both identical and fraternal, and siblings and sexual orientation. Were your twin friends fraternal or identical?[/li]
[li]beakerxf - great cites! Thanks so much! You really need to start posting in my thread more often! :D[/li]
[li]red_dragon60, you might also want to check out my “Ask the Gay Guy” thread for some personal insights from myself and others on this board.[/list][/li]
In general, I’d point just about anyone to the Gay Guy thread, and feel free to ask some of the questions here there as well if you want to explore them further (as all of this is really not related to the OP).
Esprix
Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!
Actually, they were identical. My logic goes that being genetically identical, but psychologically different, homosexuality cannot be genetic.
???
Just because A is good doesn’t automatically make B. It may be natural for “a male and a female blah blah blah” but that doesn’t necessarily mean that two men or two women getting together isn’t natural. Why can’t they both be natural?
“One more anal-probing, gyro, pyro, levitating, eco-plasm, alien anti-matter story and I’m gonna take out my gun and shoot somebody.”
– Fox Mulder
OK, now that surprises me - the research I remember reading said there was a 99% correlation of sexual orientation among identical twins. I’m going to have to check out a few of those cites beaker was kind enough to give us.
I hope I’m right - otherwise my whole twin fantasy just went out the window!
Esprix, who is rather fond of the Brewer twins
Evidently, I rock.
Ask the Gay Guy!
Esprix said
So, Esprix… When you think about social learning theory, you hear show tunes?
Man, you are gay.
A long time ago I posted that most religions banned pre-marital sex, and homosexuals are not allowed to get married, therefore it’s all pre-marital and a sin.
That’s what I said, and that’s the truth. But I was being sarcastic. I don’t AGREE with that line of logic, I just stated it. It doesn’t make any more sense to me then it does to most people. Logic often flies out the window when it comes to religion etc etc.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
Has anyone ever noticed that it seems that only Christianity has a beef with gays? I am just wondering if there are other religions (outside of cults :)) that dislike or hate it?
“I know you’ve come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you’re only going to kill a man.” -Che Guevara, Oct 9, 1967.
Yes, Islam has a huge beef with homosexuals. Currently there are four nations that have the death penalty for homosexuality. They are predominately Muslim. The law states that a homosexual will be stoned, if he survives, the sentence will be commuted (though I assume if he’s caught doing it again, back to the stoning he goes). However, they don’t actually stone. Instead they push a 15 foot brick wall onto them.
The countries were Afghanistan (Taliban, naturally), Iraq…and…um can’t recall the other two. Georgia, in the former USSR, passed a law that allows the punishment for homosexuality to be caning.
(BTW, don’t get caught being gay in Idaho. They’re sodomy law carries a prison maximum life sentence :eek: )
It varies within Buddhism. The Dalai Lama has been very cautious in stateing his opinions on the matter. However, many adherents believe that if the relationship is beneficial to each partner, is done in moderation, and does no harm, then it doesn’t matter what the gender is.
Reform Judaism recently decided to perform marriages for homosexuals if requested. The Orthodox in Israel expressed strong disdain for the decision and it has apparently endangered relations within Israel between the two groups. The article about that was at CNN, I’ll dig up the link for more specifics.
Hindu religion used to be very tolerant of homosexuality, but the English colonization pretty much reversed that. They now seem to take a more Christian stance against it.
I’ll try to track down articles.
My first long term relationship was with an identical twin. His brother was straight. This was hardly the only difference between the two of them. My guy was even tempered, and his brother was a hot head. My guy had a dry sense of humor, his brother liked lowbrow comedy. I could go on and on, one liked strawberry ice cream, the other chocolate…
They are made up of the same DNA, but after the egg split, they were two separate individuals.
Meanwhile I have a gay brother and a lesbian sister, go figgure.
Do I believe I was born gay? Yep!
ZION: above I have refuted your anti homosxuality arguements with arguements from SCRIPTUE. I’m calling you out, Bible to Bible. Or will you just concede there is nothing especially sinful about homosexuality?
Man, I need to stop skimming these threads. Many people have manipulated what I have said and I didn’t even notice to defend myself.I also need to remind myself that when I post something all YOU see is words, you can’t hear the tone of my voice or my body language.
I stand by my belief that it’s unnatural due to the fact that sex is for propogating the species. I never made the equation of unnatural to immoral. If I did, I either didn’t mean to, or have since forgotten. Besides I realize that there is more in love then sex. How does that make prayer unnatural Ox? I don’t understand what you are getting at there…
I don’t think anybody who is non religious should care what the Bible says. HOWEVER, the OP asked why people don’t like Gays. That’s why they don’t like Gays, they believe the Bible says it’s bad. I personally don’t know for sure, I haven’t read through the entire Bible looking for exact references.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
PEPPER: Sex is for propagating the species? then why does Paul in 1COR7 say ALL sex, even between man & woman is bad? Is it not natural to propagate the species?
Stoli: Ox did not “call me” on anything. Being holy, means not being gay. Being holy, means not sinning, and if you do sin, to repent of it, and try your utmost, not to do it again. Of course, Jesus was perfect, so we’ll always fall short of His standards. But, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.
Esprix: I am shocked that it took you this long to find the thread. I know that we agree to disagree, and leave it at that, as long as we both know that there is no hate involved, on either side. (I’m sure there is no hate in my heart, towards you, or anyone, just because they are gay)
Dumb Ox: Thank for explaining your handle. I think I explained my stance on Jesus’ holiness above.
Daniel: You did not refute anything. Your views of Scripture are twisted, and your respect for Paul is minimal at best. It will do me no good to go at it with you, “Bible to Bible.” And no, I will most definitely not concede that homosexuality is not sinful.
I am not going to make any arguements with biblical references. I have already stated that I have not carefully studied the Bible and my knowledge of it is general at best. Right now, I cannot defend anything I say with ample evidence when it comes to the Bible. So I’m not even going to try it. I have no idea what Paul said, or why he said it. Though I DO know that through thousands of years the Bible has been interperted by Men, therefore I often take everything I hear about the Bible with a grain of salt. Men’s personal mistakes is bound to be reflected a few times, maybe someone left out an “and” or a “Therefore” or a whole sentence. I don’t know, and I’m not going to argue about it. But it’s a possibility.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
I disagree that homosexuality is unnatural. Think about it–most people are able to propagate, and in my experience seem to do so indiscriminately. It is possible to have more offspring than one can readily care for.
So if you were designing a society, wouldn’t it be a good idea to keep some people from having children, so that they can care for the overflow? At the same time, it would suck to keep those people from having sex altogether, since it is rather enjoyable. The solution? Simple–give them a preference for members of the same sex! Everyone can still shtup to their heart’s content, but we can be certain that some of them won’t be having children!
Sounds like something an intelligent designer might do, unlike, say, the coagulation cascade.
Perhaps we are subverting the plan of God/nature/the IPU(PBUH) when we discourage homosexuality, and doubly so when we prevent them from adopting children.
Dr. J
“Seriously, baby, I can prescribe anything I want!” -Dr. Nick Riviera