Um, you are aware that homosexuals can get married in this country? They do it all the time. It’s just that government does not recognize it as a legally binding relationship.
I did date men despite my orientation for a while. I found it to be incredibly unfair to them. Especially, the last one since he was convince I was his one true love. The only problem was that while he was my best friend, I just didn’t feel the same emotional attachment he did and I saw that I would only be a “cold fish” wife to him. That’s hardly fair to him. Though I realize you expect us to sacrifice a little in this life. So I have to ask, would you marry a man even if he tells you he’s gay?
pepperlandgirl, let me explain what it’s like to be a homosexual in a hetersexual relationship and more importantly, what it’s like to be the other person.
I dated a man for several months, and like I said before, he was my best friend. I could spend a lot of time talking to him and enjoyed his company. However, I was not in love with him and he was in love with me.
It did cross my mind on a couple occassions to just go ahead and make the relationship with him permanent. After all, he’d make a great husband and I wouldn’t risk my eternal soul. The problem was that he would sense that my interest was not as strong in him. It started to bother him that he would always initiate a kiss, and I never would. He also sensed that I was not “there” when we would kiss. Which was true. My mind would wander.
So one day he mentioned it and how much it was starting to hurt him. So I made a greater effort to try to act interested. To act like I was in love. I have never felt so dishonest in my life. Besides, it didn’t work. He could still sense that something was wrong.
I got to thinking about it, and realized that at the rate we were going, he would eventually distrust me completely and I would come to resent him for making me be something I’m not.
I have never been in love with a man, but I have with women. That’s just the way it works. For me to lie like that to a man some day just so I can do the “right” thing and get married is just cruel. Cruel to him and cruel to me.
All of that, for what? The chance that there might be a heaven? What if I live a life half lived and find that there were no rules against homosexuality? I only know that I have this life here and that I have to make the best of it that I can.
So again, I ask you, would you be willing to mrry a gay man? Even if you know that he won’t feel as strongly for you?
Your right to swing your fist stops at my face. Your right to your beliefs stops at my person. (I’m not gay, I’m just trying to make a point) The idea that homsexuality is immoral is just your opinion. If Paul wrote that in a letter then that’s just his opinion. If you think that the Bible is the word of God, that too is just your opinion. Whose opinions about the essense of my being matter, yours or mine? If you want to find out about homosexuality, ask real homosexuals. Your opinions are seperated from reality by 2000 years.
As for homosexuality being “unnatural”, well in term of our basic understanding of the purpose of sex it appears to be. On the other hand, it certainly seems to be naturally occuring, not some artificial invention. Even so, since when does “unnatural” equal “immoral”? We do things that are unnatural all day, every day. Cars are unnatural, television is unatural, even writing is unnatural (language is natural). Homosexuality has certainly existed longer than writing has. In order for something to be considered truly immoral, there have to be real-world consequences that you can point to. Judging someone else’s actions based solely on your own religious beliefs–no matter how many others share them–is not true morality, it is superstition.
Here’s my take on the whole subject. I truly hope that no one is offended by frank talk about sexuality. If you are, you may want to skip this posting. Fine, here we go…
Men, we have a prostate. It feels good to manually stimulate the prostate. This is true whether the man is gay or straight. *However, no guy wants to come right out and admit this. “Say honey, for Christmas this year, could you get me a nice rubber butt-plug?” Never gonna hear that one!
The same characters who love to talk about homosexuals as though they were from another galaxy (can’t relate to them, nope!) will revel in a two-hour dump.
Any proctologists out there want to testify?
I do not think that most people have fully explored the sexual orientation with which they were born. The friction between what one knows feels good and what one will admit to, gives rise to a lot of the homosexual bashing that I hear.
Folks, please forgive me for the frank talk. I honestly assure you that I am not trolling.
While I agree about Japanese not liking differences, did you go to any gay clubs while you were there? I went to a couple, and everybody seemed to be enjoying the floor show, straight people and gay. Men dressing as women is considered an art form in the plays. Japanese loved Boy George when he was cool.
I have to disagree with you on this issue. I think Japanese is very open-minded towards gays.
Oooooooh boy! So, this means that there could be a God, and He could have created the earth, right David? I mean, just because you can’t conceive of Him, doesn’t men He’s not there.
Notice David, that I said a man cannot attain true peace without God. A man cannot know what true love is without God. Nobody knows true joy, unless they have the joy of the Spirit in them. These are not blanket statements. They are my beliefs, and I believe them as though they are fact. (Well, technically, they are facts, which non-believers have yet to realize)
I do want to make an amendment to my post though. Man can alter his state of mind, somewhat, on his own. God has given us spirits, and souls, and minds which we can control at times. We do have free will. But, we are not our own. For a Christian, the attitude should be, “Without Him, I can do nothing.” “He is my everything.” That’s what I was trying to say earlier.
Anyone who thinks they can make it on their own in this life, and are trulyliving, without God, is just fooling themselves.
Must be nice, Adam, to think that only those who believe as exactly you do can be truly living. But personally, I am glad that I need not believe that people cannot possess “true” happiness or “true” peacefulness simply based on what supernatural beings they do/do not believe in.
Um, when have any of us disputed that this could have happened? God could have made the earth look exactly like it would have without His intervention, and how could we prove otherwise? Similarly, to be honest, you must admit that the IPU could have made the earth last Tuesday, and have it look exactly like it would have without Her intervention, and how could you prove otherwise? May Her hooves never be shod! I demand the same degree of “possibility” of the IPU from all Christians as Christians think they have the right to demand of atheists regarding the “possibility” of God. And if it irks you to admit the “possibility” of the IPU, compare it to how we likely feel about the “possibility” of the Christian God…
[edited to fix confusing phrasing–Gaudere]
[Note: This message has been edited by Gaudere]
Golly, first humans can’t change their mindset, now all of a sudden we can. What changed about the human race between those two posts? Could it be that you changed your position for no other reason than it was so quickly exposed as utterly absurd?
No matter, enough people still believe it that it’s still legit to ask this question. You say that being gay is a choice. This would mean either than heterosexuality is the default or that there is no default sexual orientation and each person chooses from among the options. Now, if people can’t change their mindset without God, how exactly do they choose their sexual orientation in the first place? If sexual orientation is a mindset which can’t be changed without God, God must therefore be actively involved in the selection of a homosexual orientation.
Like I said before, I think that it’s a very noble thing to do for homosexuals to get married and have a family. But it would take a VERY strong partner to live with it. I have never been put in the position, but my BF is also my best friend in the world. If he told me he was gay, but willing to be in a monogamous (SP?) relationship with me and have a family, then I would probably agree. Sex isn’t going to be fun forever and people need loved ones to grow old with.
Please don’t get me wrong. When I post what I believe, it’s not in any way trying to persuade people to change. I respect your personal preferences and beliefs and I also reserve the right to state my own. If anything I have said in pass posts have been offensive to anybody, then I’m truly sorry. That was never my intention.
I’m also aware that homosexuals can be married, and that it happens all the time. But is the majority married? Or, wait, I have a better question. Does the hetrosexual world PERCEIVE the majority of homosexuals to be in a monogamous relationship. There are two facts, the REAL facts and the PERCEIVED facts. Unfortunately society mainly operates on perception and interpertation.
“The bitch, oh the bitch, the bitch is back…I’m a bitch cuz I’m better then you, it’s the way that I move
The things that I do…” Elton John
“People try to tell me thoughts they cannot defend…” The Moody Blues
“To start, press any key. Where’s the any key?” Homer Simpson.
I never said “believe exactly as I do.” Only those who are living in Jesus truly have life. Whether you and I believe this or not will not change the fact.
And, I understand your point about the IPU. (I’m not sure what that is, but I’m gonna guess it means Invisible Pink Unicorn, which seems to be a common phrase around here)
No, I have yet to be offended by anything people have posted at this site. I can recognize your beliefs and believe or not, I do respect them. I try not to attack anyone’s beliefs. I’ll point out alternative beliefs or inconsistencies, but I won’t try to put you on the defensive. The only reason I asked if you would marry a gay man because there are some people who would make the statement that they should sacrifice some level of happiness, but they themselevs would not be willing to make the same sacrifice.
Also, for me, there is more to a relationship to sex. There is more to a same sex attraction to just the sexual aspect. For whatever reason there is also an emotional bond that I just can’t seem to get with men. That’s typically what falling in love is, it’s not the lust aspect, but it’s the emotional bond.
Finally, I think you need to adjust your “it’s unnatural” argument. It had too many fallacies. For instance, homosexuality is found in the animal world. Certain birds have been known to form same sex lifetime attachments, etc. Plus, asking a homosexual to be heterosexual despite their orientation, is asking them to act against their nature, which is unnatural. Finally, just becasue something is natural or unnatural does not make it immoral. How many things do you do in a day that could be considered unnatural? How many animals listen to the radio in nature? Using a crash cart to resuscitate a person can be very unnatural.
So you might consider saying homosexuality “is against God’s Plan”.
Online, I know one gay couple who are celebrating their 15th anniversry in June. Another gay couple in Canada have been together for ten year and are extremely excited about the new law that recognizes them as a common law couple. I also know a lesbian couple who plan to get married this summer. The organizers of the March on Washington held a contest looking for the couples with the most longetivity and found a lesbian and a gay couple who had each been together 40+ years.
I have a childhood friend who was married three years ago and is still togather with his partner. I work for a fairly large company and in my department are two gay men. One who has been married 11 years and the other has been married for a little over a year.
Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, authors Gertrude Stein and Willa Cathers, all had lifelong relationships. If I had to look, I could probably dig up other examples of committed relationships.
My perception is that it’s not less likely to find committed relationships among homosexuals. The problem is that the average heterosexual doesn’t know about the relationships. The two gay men at work come alone to company parties. They never mention their partners and have quietly, by not saying anything, given the impression that they are bachelors. I wouldn’t even have known if I hadn’t run into them and their partners at a gay-safe dinner party.
There is no character in the Bible known as “It”, and therefore one should not say “‘It’ says in the Bible…”. I believe the words of Cain, Pontius Pilate, and Satan can be found in the Bible along with those of David, Isaiah, and Jesus.
Well, everything I’ve read here reinforces what I said way back on page one—most people object to homosexuality (and to homosexuals) either because of religious reasons or because they think it’s “icky.”
There’s nothing you can do about the “icky” factor. But I have a question for Zion and Pepperlandgirl: an awful lot of people do not believe in gods or the bible. Why should we pay the slightest attention to what the Christian (or Jewish, or Islamic, etc.) bible says? It could actually say in black-and-white, “homosexuality is WRONG WRONG WRONG,” but why should anyone nonreligious CARE?
Lucretia, sorry about the vagueness. I meant the ancient culture. I can understand your confusion, because the ancient and modern cultures are very different. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
“I know you’ve come to kill me. Shoot, coward, you’re only going to kill a man.” -Che Guevara, Oct 9, 1967.
Yeah, I want to back up what red_dragon said about Japan. There was a period when, in the upper class, where homosexuality was tolerated. The source of that information is a History Channel documentary called History of Sex. In fact, the overall idea in the documentary was that homosexuality was tolerated in the East, that later changes in attitude were brought on by interaction with the west and the infusion of Christianity, or at least certain Christian ideals.
The “Mad King” Ludwig II of Bavaria was gay. He’s the one who wasted away the treasury building things like Neuschwanstein, and Schloss Linderhof. I guess that means that it was accepted in Bavaria during his reign. Or not.
Otto has said that being gay will get him a direct ticket to hell. Or, at least, that’s what he’s been told. This is simply not true. Being gay, is no worse a sin that anything else. God does not see sin in degrees, although we humans do. Sin is sin. What will keep anybody from heaven is not accepting Jesus as their Savior. That’s it. Every sin you’ve committed, and every sin you will committ in the future is covered by the Cross of Jesus, the blood of the Lamb, should you chose to accept it.
It is possible to be Christian, and be gay for a while, maybe years after salvation. Christians sin, just like everyone else. The only difference is that we have Jesus covering our sins for us. Now, eventually, someone who is gay, and still trying to serve the Lord will see that that area of their life is not pleasing to God. It may take a long time for the person to accept this, but if they are truly seeking Jesus, it will happen. To be Christian, is to be like Jesus. And Jesus, was not gay.
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Zion, don’t take this the wrong way–I’m just curious, not trying to start a debate or anything: where do you get the idea that God sees all sin as equal? Is it explicitly stated in the Bible?
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