Not really because it doesn’t follow that because I don’t like Stevie Wonder’s music that I am necessarily racist. Most people don’t assume that not liking Stevie Wonder’s music is prima facie evidence of racial animus.
Are you saying that the premise that the third person used to determine that you were racist is so outlandish that you don’t feel the need to defend against it?
There is that outcome word again. Outcomes will never be and should never be ‘equal’.
Outcomes are based upon input, all of varying degrees. Unless the input is identical, should the outcomes be identical.
For everything.
College applications, criminal justice, jobs.
It seems to me that equating accusations of white fragility with accusations of racism is an example of white fragility.
White fragility is when a person fears being accused of being a racist enough that they are proactive in defending themselves against such accusations, whether or not the accusations have actually occurred. They have a skewed perspective where they see accusations even if they aren’t there and react accordingly.
If somebody were to ask me whether my race has helped me, I wouldn’t attempt to weasel out with some sort of statement that “My race is the norm, and thus I don’t have to answer your questions about race which might be traps to get me to say something racist. (Other, inferior races still have to answer such questions, of course.)” I would instead just blink, a little surprised to be asked such a question out of the blue, and say, “Well yeah. Obviously. It’s way more convenient not to be pulled over all the time or stalked when I go shopping. But honestly most of my easy life results from other factors where race is less of a factor, like my mom being so nice.”
If somebody says “A black man was just murdered!” I don’t say, “I didn’t do it! I’ve never murdered a black man! Don’t look at me!” I’d instead blink and say, “Huh. That’s bad.” (And then probably be attacked for not being more sympathetic, which is fair because I’m not a very sympathetic person.)
That’s the difference between having white fragility and not having it. It’s a different and separate thing from racism.
So women and minorities shouldn’t expect equal treatment in jobs, justice, etc. because their “input” is not equal?
In my view, if we are seeing disproportionate outcomes, and you want to argue that it has to do with the quality of education attained or whatever, then I’m just going to ask why educational outcomes are so discriminatory.
I’ll bet you will take offense at the question.
If the idea of a casual accusation of racism has got you all in your feelings imagine what it would feel like to have to deal with being on the receiving end of a casual act of racism…over and over and over again going back as far as you can remember. And do these casual acts of racism happen in a controlled classroom or lecture environment? No! They happen in the wild and usually when you least expect it.
It’s almost like DiAngelo is trying to address a real problem that causes real harm instead of worrying about being sensitive to how white people feel about the subject. It’s almost like she’s saying that white people’s sensitivity to the subject IS A BIG FUCKING PART OF THE PROBLEM AND WE NEED TO GET PASSED IT SO WE CAN MAKE SOME DAMN PROGRESS.
Much like how most white folks don’t care if black folks have to deal with racism, I don’t give a damn if white folks get their feelings hurt when we talk about racism.
When did “empathy” become a synonym for “fragility”?
Sure, you can question why people who are part of the norm get treated differently from people who aren’t, but depending on how you phrase the question and especially what answers you expect is going to make a lot of difference.
For instance, people in high-crime neighborhoods get stopped by the police a lot more than people in “normal” neighborhoods. Why? Because high-crime neighborhoods are not the norm. Therefore the police are going to be more present, and more suspicious. But the answer to that is not, IMO, to try to believe that high-crime neighborhoods are the norm, or that the police should pretend that it is. Maybe there is something else that can be done, or should be done. But “believing the norm is the norm is racist” ain’t gonna get anywhere. There was a thread a while back about how we spend almost the same, or maybe a little more per-student, in poor districts as “normal” districts, but the outcomes were quite different. That would be a case of treating everyone as being in “the norm” - but it doesn’t “work”.
This isn’t Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above-average.
Like I said, “how has being part of the norm made you different?” is kind of an odd question. “How has not being part of the norm made you different?” is a different question.
How would a black person answer? I dunno - ask them.
Regards,
Shodan
I won’t disagree that some diversity training, particularly on college campuses, can be poorly implemented and create tension unnecessarily. You have good training that raises awareness, and you can also have terrible facilitators who don’t know what they’re doing. Bad training is bad training, but it doesn’t invalidate the need for quality discussion that raises people’s awareness on sensitive issues.
Sure, because you will almost certainly deny that racism exists outside of white folks wearing hoods, no matter what evidence is presented; probably because you don’t feel in the impacts of racism. Which is the question posed by the OP. And you sometimes tinker with an even more extreme idea, that people manufacture racism so they can benefit somehow – which is an obscenely stupid assertion.
Your first is an easy question to answer. By not being crippled by various factors that the majority of the population deal with (talking women and minorities) I’ve been given an advantage that has helped me in virtually every facet of my life, from my job to my wealth to my only being pulled over maybe three times in my life.
Is that really so hard to come up with?
If that’s all the evidence in its entirety, yes. But I assume that we’re mostly talking about situations beyond the absurd.
It…hasn’t? ‘White fragility’ is when the white person leaps to defensive positions rather than being willing to face the reality of society’s systemic racism. It’s sort of the opposite of empathy - you can’t be empathetic about a problem you’re refuse to acknowledge exists out of fear that you might be blamed for causing it.
That’s fair. But that’s how ALL accusations of racism directed towards ME sound. That’s why I don’t bother to defend myself, or understand why the person is saying it. And that’s why I don’t care if someone calls me “racist”
(as an answer to your question of “So if someone calls you a racist in real life, you’re honestly saying that you don’t care?”)
I’m sure the training sessions are different than the written text or even interviews she’s given. But as I said, I’m only evaluating based on what I’ve read and what’s been presented in various threads. Her writing isn’t persuasive at all to me - it doesn’t even carry that semblance of truth to it. Like, I’m sure it’s accurate for some folks and that’s why it resonates. But when I read it, my first middle, and last reaction is that it’s a portrayal that doesn’t represent anything close to reality.
Regarding sociology, I think of what DiAngelo writes and do a replacement of the races. Like, someone were to say that when black people have an instinctive negative reaction when confronted by police officers, that’s black fragility. I have an inherent skepticism of generalizations of this nature. It probably is a good thing I’m not a sociologist.
In meatspace, I’ve heard people say that if you think OJ was guilty that’s racist. Or if you think Zimmerman was innocent that’s racist. Or if you think Michael Brown was justifiably shot that’s racist. Those are a few examples, but it happens enough that without substantial evidence it’s just noise to be disregarded.
A lot of the reason I don’t care about being called a racist without evidence is, when I say I don’t care if I get called a racist without evidence, I get this kind of nonsense.
Fortunately, I am not fragile about it.
Regards,
Shodan
You manly man, you.
I don’t have enough familiarity with Diangelo to know, but I don’t know if that’s really what’s being argued. I think what people are saying is, before you defensively deny someone’s accusations of bias, maybe listen to what they have to say first. You can disagree with someone’s assessment that you’re biased or that you’re racist or whatever. But if someone’s making an honest and nuanced attempt to describe what they see as bias on your part, I don’t know…maybe listen and ask why they feel that way.
Having said that, I would agree that it certainly helps to be tactful. If someone points out potential biased comments or behavior on my part, I would certainly listen, but it’s easier to listen if someone isn’t accusing me of being an outright racist - on that we agree. That assumes that I’m not saying and doing patently racist things, of course.
Why do you believe that the comments are necessarily about you as an individual - I don’t think that they are. You are a part of whiteness, and this country’s whiteness has been demonstrably racist. Just get your constitution and read the sections that pertain to racism. I don’t know if I would agree that assuming the norm is the norm is necessarily racist, but it’s definitely biased thinking. Why should someone have to show you that you’re being a racist before you listen? Why not just listen, think, and consider?
It’s not racist to think that white people have established the norms in this society - I don’t think minorities disagree with you there. What that statement is intended to emphasize is that just because whites have established their “normal” doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone else has to agree with it or like it. You can argue that they have to live with it regardless, but that type of thinking inevitably leads to unresolved tension. It essentially sends the message “It’s a white man’s country, with the white man’s rules. Tough shit if you don’t like it, son - you’re free to leave anytime you please.” How is anyone supposed to respond favorably to that kind of thinking?
Someone’s problems aren’t necessarily your fault, but by being more aware of how racism injures people you, being white and in closer proximity to other whites, might be in a position to foster more awareness and more mutual understanding, even if we don’t get mutual agreement. I think one of the problems that people have when they get defensive about racism or claims of bias is that they assume that they are individually being placed under a microscope, and that’s frequently not the case - not unless someone is voluntarily, consciously being racist.
If I had to come up with an elevator speech on how my race has shaped my life, it would be something like this:
I have had a charmed life for the most part, but I think my race has made it a bit more challenging than it would be if I had been been born white. Being black means that I am more sensitive to certain things…and not just sensitive in the emotional sense of the word, but also in the perceptive sense. I simply notice things I probably wouldn’t notice otherwise. I think this awareness had made me softer in some ways and harder in others. This is probably the most I can say without getting in the realm of speculation.
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Funny, I think OJ was guilty as hell and I thought Zimmerman abused of his authority into seeking a confrontation that turned deadly. Now, the issue to me was if that confrontation was influenced by his racism, and that is very likely when one bothers to notice what Zimmerman did later.
As someone noted at tweeter before Zimmerman’s account was banned:
“George Zimmerman’s profile picture is literally a Confederate flag, but his supporters claim he’s not racist.”
You’re comparing two different contexts. Whites fragility involves white people, who collectively have more power than “fragile” blacks who have been victimized by the police.
I think you misheard them.
It’s not that these beliefs are racist, but rather that they could be symptoms of people who have racist attitudes, or at least attitudes that are heavily biased.